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Author Topic:   Christianity and the End Times
dwise1
Member
Posts: 3309
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 4.6


(1)
Message 1681 of 1697 (849470)
03-11-2019 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 1679 by Phat
03-11-2019 9:49 AM


Re: Origins Of Reality
So is a prayer wasted effort?

The Unitarian call to prayer that we used ended with:

quote:
We do this knowing that prayer does not change things, but prayer changes us and we are the agents of change.

Similarly, the proper purpose of an invocation to start a meeting would be to remind everybody present of what they are there for in order for everybody to put themselves in the proper frame of mind.

Then why is one of His two major commandments to love Him with our whole being?

How do you know that? Wasn't that written by Man? Wasn't that Man putting words in his god's mouth?

Everything that we know about any god is the stories Man has told and written about that god.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1679 by Phat, posted 03-11-2019 9:49 AM Phat has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 16231
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1682 of 1697 (849472)
03-11-2019 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 1679 by Phat
03-11-2019 9:49 AM


Re: Origins Of Reality
Phat writes:

So is a prayer wasted effort?


As others have said, it may have psychological effects, much like waving a chicken over your head. But if you expect it to provide you with your daily bread, you're better off going to work instead.

Phat writes:

ringo writes:

His expectations don't even enter into it.


Then why is one of His two major commandments to love Him with our whole being?

That's the expectation of the shamans who wrote the commandments. Of course, one of the major aspects of loving "God" with your whole being is keeping the shamans provided with roast ox.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1679 by Phat, posted 03-11-2019 9:49 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1683 by Phat, posted 03-11-2019 3:45 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12164
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1683 of 1697 (849484)
03-11-2019 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1682 by ringo
03-11-2019 11:47 AM


Re: Origins Of Reality
Shamans wrote the commandments? This is news. Were Moses and Aaron Shamans?

Of course one mans Roast Ox is another mans spare change.

Edited by Phat, : added quip


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1682 by ringo, posted 03-11-2019 11:47 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1684 by ringo, posted 03-11-2019 4:02 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16231
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1684 of 1697 (849487)
03-11-2019 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1683 by Phat
03-11-2019 3:45 PM


Re: Origins Of Reality
Phat writes:

Were Moses and Aaron Shamans?


Yes.

Phat writes:

Of course one mans Roast Ox is another mans spare change.


I don't promise anybody communion with God in exchange for spare change.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1683 by Phat, posted 03-11-2019 3:45 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1685 by Phat, posted 03-11-2019 4:08 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12164
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1685 of 1697 (849488)
03-11-2019 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1684 by ringo
03-11-2019 4:02 PM


Re: Origins Of Reality
Your spare change is communion. You don't even need to bring God up.

One side discussion is whether Moses used God to maintain power or whether he really thought the people needed the imagery.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1684 by ringo, posted 03-11-2019 4:02 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1686 by ringo, posted 03-11-2019 4:11 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16231
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1686 of 1697 (849489)
03-11-2019 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1685 by Phat
03-11-2019 4:08 PM


Re: Origins Of Reality
Phat writes:

Your spare change is communion. You don't even need to bring God up.


It's human-to-human communion. I don't have to bring up leprechauns either.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1685 by Phat, posted 03-11-2019 4:08 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1687 by Phat, posted 03-11-2019 4:14 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12164
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1687 of 1697 (849491)
03-11-2019 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1686 by ringo
03-11-2019 4:11 PM


Re: Origins Of Reality
It's human-to-human communion.

So was Jesus.
I don't have to bring up leprechauns either.

Jesus did bring up His Father a lot. I wonder if he would do that today?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1686 by ringo, posted 03-11-2019 4:11 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1688 by ringo, posted 03-11-2019 4:24 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16231
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1688 of 1697 (849493)
03-11-2019 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1687 by Phat
03-11-2019 4:14 PM


Re: Origins Of Reality
Phat writes:

ringo writes:

It's human-to-human communion.


So was Jesus.

Then so was Long John Silver.

Phat writes:

Jesus did bring up His Father a lot. I wonder if he would do that today?


Today He could be an atheist without being lynched.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1687 by Phat, posted 03-11-2019 4:14 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1690 by Phat, posted 03-13-2019 7:57 PM ringo has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3810
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 1689 of 1697 (849499)
03-11-2019 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1674 by Phat
03-10-2019 11:35 AM


Re: Where does scripture say God sacrificed himself (HIMSELF)?
Wait....we are 13.7 billion years old? One would think that the basic building blocks of life might be around, but hardly anything human or even this planet.

Everything you're made of, and I do mean everything, came to being about 13.7 billion years ago when the universe was created. Doesn't make much difference if it was cooked into a different configuration then globbed into a sun or a planet or a people. It's all the same stuff.

Remember, we're talking about your god using some majik words to supposedly create the universe except the universe was already around for 13.7 blyrs before any word, a human construct, came into being so your god was late on the scene.

Somewhere around 250,000 years ago some young pretty pre-proto-human girl was just sitting on a stone near the fire when a handsome pre-proto-human boy walked up and handed her a good hunk of fresh liver he received from the hunters. She smiled through her browning teeth and hairy lips lighting up her eyes below her protruding hairy uni-brow and said thank you.

Well, actually she said something like "grrug-ugh" but he understood and smiled back beneath his own protruding hairy uni-brow. So they sat there side by side eating hunks of liver with blood and bile dripping down their fingers and arms making little grunting noises at each other. Ah, young love.

Anyway that was the first word to exist in the universe. Tens of thousands of years later when your god finally was thunk into existence I guess he tried to speak the universe into creation right dab in the middle of an already existing universe.

Like I said ... way too late. Really bad form for an omniscient being, too, but he was new at this and hadn't been properly prepared by his makers.

So, if your story is that your god tried to speak the universe into existance by saying words then it was a frightful cockup having intruded on an already existing creation ... and billions of years after that original one was already in place.

Thus the beginning of our speculation originates through words. Oh, wait...In The Beginning, was The Word... So Who spoke Whom into existence?
Did we imagine God? OR did God imagine/create us? The jury has not arrived at a definite verdict.

Actually the verdict was rendered some many millennia ago and all appeals have been exhausted.

Your god was spoken into existence but not until humans had already developed words and grammar and syntax and about a thousand other gods prior.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1674 by Phat, posted 03-10-2019 11:35 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1691 by Phat, posted 03-13-2019 8:00 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12164
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1690 of 1697 (849540)
03-13-2019 7:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1688 by ringo
03-11-2019 4:24 PM


Re: Origins Of Reality
Today He could be an atheist without being lynched.
In our all-inclusive world, I see that as a possibility. But His message would not change.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1688 by ringo, posted 03-11-2019 4:24 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1692 by ringo, posted 03-14-2019 11:37 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12164
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


(1)
Message 1691 of 1697 (849541)
03-13-2019 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1689 by AZPaul3
03-11-2019 8:02 PM


Re: Where does scripture say God sacrificed himself (HIMSELF)?
Remember, we're talking about your god using some majik words to supposedly create the universe except the universe was already around for 13.7 blyrs before any word, a human construct, came into being so your god was late on the scene.
Not exactly. We believe that God came before dirt. God existed before the singularity before the Big Bang. But of course, I can't prove it objectively.
I just want to straighten you out on what "my God" means. Logically you can say that "star stuff" was around before any humans wrote a book or dreamed up some God that uttered the initial Word. We won't agree on this context.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1689 by AZPaul3, posted 03-11-2019 8:02 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16231
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1692 of 1697 (849555)
03-14-2019 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 1690 by Phat
03-13-2019 7:57 PM


Re: Origins Of Reality
Phat writes:

But His message would not change.


So, would you still worship an atheist Jesus? While still rejecting His message?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1690 by Phat, posted 03-13-2019 7:57 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1693 by Phat, posted 03-22-2019 3:03 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12164
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1693 of 1697 (849809)
03-22-2019 3:03 AM
Reply to: Message 1692 by ringo
03-14-2019 11:37 AM


Re: Origins Of Reality
ringo writes:

o, would you still worship an atheist Jesus? While still rejecting His message?

No. What could such a Jesus do for anybody? He would be like many humans....a legend in his own mind. He would by definition be unconnected from anything greater than Himself. He would preach that evidence was the method for determining the truth. His vocabulary would contain no words like "Faith" or "Belief". And even if He did speak of belief, We still couldn't "see" His Father. No character like that was written in the message.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1692 by ringo, posted 03-14-2019 11:37 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1694 by ringo, posted 03-22-2019 12:00 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16231
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 1694 of 1697 (849818)
03-22-2019 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1693 by Phat
03-22-2019 3:03 AM


Re: Origins Of Reality
Phat writes:

What could such a Jesus do for anybody?


So that's the bottom line? Jesus is some celestial butler?

Phat writes:

He would by definition be unconnected from anything greater than Himself.


But we're not unconnected from anything greater than ourselves. We're connected to each other. The group is greater than the individual. That's the point of being a social species. That's the point of helping each other. Even Jesus understood that.

Phat writes:

He would preach that evidence was the method for determining the truth.


He did. Read the story of doubting Thomas again (John 20:19-29).

Phat writes:

His vocabulary would contain no words like "Faith" or "Belief".


So much the better.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1693 by Phat, posted 03-22-2019 3:03 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1695 by Phat, posted 03-22-2019 12:04 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12164
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1695 of 1697 (849819)
03-22-2019 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1694 by ringo
03-22-2019 12:00 PM


Re: Origins Of Reality
Phat writes:

His vocabulary would contain no words like "Faith" or "Belief".


ringo writes:

So much the better.

Are you suggesting that IF Jesus existed and IF
He was to exist today, humanity would be better off were He an atheist?

That's quite a rabbit trail you have there.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1694 by ringo, posted 03-22-2019 12:00 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1696 by ringo, posted 03-22-2019 12:10 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 1697 by Tangle, posted 03-22-2019 1:06 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
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