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Author | Topic: Christianity and the End Times | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
How can you call it rational when you can't provide reasons for its irrational behaviour?
My "pet" God is rational. Phat writes:
Again, the book is the only source you have. Everything else is made up.
Certainly not limited to the one you compile from the book. Phat writes:
How is any of that rational?
Basically an initial Creator of all seen and unseen. A source for the fodder for Big Bangs. An initial source. An eternal conduit of creativity and encouragement. A validation that human minds are not all that we have to bank on. An insurance policy of Hope for an uncertain future with fallible humans likely to blow themselves up if left to their own instincts. Phat writes:
"It defining you" is the epitome of irrationality. Why must your qualification for acceptance hinge on something different from that? I suspect it will be because you discovered and defined it rather than it defining you.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Of course. Humans are the only things in the universe known to define anything.
ringo writes:
Are you suggesting that "you defining it" is more rational? "It defining you" is the epitome of irrationality. Phat writes:
Because a definition is - by definition - something that humans use to describe a human idea. Why does the definition emerge in the last seconds of a cosmic year calendar than it would in the first second?And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Of course the book is made up - but at least it's stable. What you make up is strictly ad hoc. You make up a touchy-feely God and then try to link it somehow with the Jesus who IS in the book. Are you thus arguing that the book is *not* made up?And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
We've been through that already. Are there any paintings that are not made of paint?
Are there any ideas that are not human ideas? Phat writes:
Reality is what it is regardless of any human ideas about it.
Is reality a human idea? Phat writes:
"For all practical purposes", certainly. Try walking into a store and asking for something that you can't define or describe. Are we to conclude that anything a human cannot define or describe does not exist for all practical purposes?And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Do you know what "ad hoc" means? Your ideas about God change to fit the circumstances. How is that similar to the universe creating its own complexity?
The author concludes that "the universe" creates its own complexity. How is this not also ad hoc? Phat writes:
If we could detect them, we could describe what we detected. If there's nothing we can detect, we can't have any confidence that there's anything there.
Are there any universes that *may* exist that we cannot yet define or describe? Phat writes:
You can't have a painting without the medium of paint. You can't have an idea without the medium of mind. If we correlate the word paint to the word idea, we thus hypothetically have possible universes, multiverses, or dare i say Gods that exist as ideas not yet defined. If something exists as an idea, it IS defined.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
You wouldn't have any way of knowing, would you? If the real "creator" was completely different from the one that you've made up, you wouldn't know it, would you? If the real creator had died on day eight, you wouldn't know it, would you? Did this idea create/imagine us before we defined it? So, if you can't know anything about any supposed creator that imagined us, what difference does it make whether he imagined us or not?And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
His expectations don't even enter into it. The fact is that he isn't doing it, so we have to do it ourselves if we want it done.
So your idea is that even if a God existed, you assume that He expects you to do it yourself... Phat writes:
Him and the leprechauns. Yup. Might as well leave him alone. Anything else is just wasted effort. ...and that its best just to leave Him alone..And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
As others have said, it may have psychological effects, much like waving a chicken over your head. But if you expect it to provide you with your daily bread, you're better off going to work instead.
So is a prayer wasted effort? Phat writes:
That's the expectation of the shamans who wrote the commandments. Of course, one of the major aspects of loving "God" with your whole being is keeping the shamans provided with roast ox. ringo writes:
Then why is one of His two major commandments to love Him with our whole being? His expectations don't even enter into it.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Yes.
Were Moses and Aaron Shamans? Phat writes:
I don't promise anybody communion with God in exchange for spare change. Of course one mans Roast Ox is another mans spare change.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
It's human-to-human communion. I don't have to bring up leprechauns either. Your spare change is communion. You don't even need to bring God up.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Then so was Long John Silver.
ringo writes:
So was Jesus. It's human-to-human communion. Phat writes:
Today He could be an atheist without being lynched. Jesus did bring up His Father a lot. I wonder if he would do that today?And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
So, would you still worship an atheist Jesus? While still rejecting His message? But His message would not change.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
So that's the bottom line? Jesus is some celestial butler?
What could such a Jesus do for anybody? Phat writes:
But we're not unconnected from anything greater than ourselves. We're connected to each other. The group is greater than the individual. That's the point of being a social species. That's the point of helping each other. Even Jesus understood that.
He would by definition be unconnected from anything greater than Himself. Phat writes:
He did. Read the story of doubting Thomas again (John 20:19-29).
He would preach that evidence was the method for determining the truth. Phat writes:
So much the better. His vocabulary would contain no words like "Faith" or "Belief".And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I'm suggesting that humanity would be better off without empty belief. For one thing, we could stop wasting money on crystal cathedrals and spend it on healthcare. Are you suggesting that IF Jesus existed and IFHe was to exist today, humanity would be better off were He an atheist? And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
That's a pretty conservative viewpoint.
People should be able to spend their money on whatever they want. Phat writes:
You're the only one who talks about "extreme socialism". We don't need extreme socialists to form some consensus on what's best for all of us... And we certainly do need a consensus on what's best for all of us. It's called "civilization", "society", etc.
Phat writes:
That's kinda the point. If you can't detect any water in the glass, it can't do you any good. For all intents and purposes, it is empty, so there's no use pretending it's full or even half-full. As far as empty belief goes, this whole atheism thing is more empty to me than anything the believers can churn out.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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