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Author Topic:   Christianity and the End Times
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1635 of 1748 (848382)
02-04-2019 3:05 AM
Reply to: Message 1633 by candle2
02-03-2019 6:48 PM


Re: Where does scripture say God sacrificed himself (HIMSELF)?
Not worth the candle2 writes:
God is omnipotent. God knew that Adam would sin. Before the world was created Jesus knew that He would have to redeem Hans from the death penalty.
The wages of sin is death, and sin is the transgression of God's laws.
Etc, etc, etc
Of course God knew that Adam would disobey Him. But in God's ultimate plan this was necessary.
I see you have abandonned argument for preaching. But I have a better work of fiction.
“In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit. Not a nasty, dirty, wet hole, filled with the ends of worms and an oozy smell, nor yet a dry, bare, sandy hole with nothing in it to sit down on or to eat: it was a hobbit-hole, and that means comfort.”

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1633 by candle2, posted 02-03-2019 6:48 PM candle2 has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1642 of 1748 (848401)
02-04-2019 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1640 by Phat
02-04-2019 11:34 AM


Re: Origins Of Reality
Phat writes:
But why is it impossible for an idea to exist before humanity evolved enough to define it?
Because an idea requires a brain to have it.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1640 by Phat, posted 02-04-2019 11:34 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1647 of 1748 (848427)
02-05-2019 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 1645 by candle2
02-05-2019 9:19 AM


Re: Where does scripture say God sacrificed himself (HIMSELF)?
candle2 writes:
I don't believe that there are actual full-fledged evolutionists.
This may be the only thing you've got right.
'Evolutionist' is simply a made up word by creationists in an attempt the make an equivalence between a religious belief and a scientific fact/theory. It impresses no-one but creationists.
I suppose we should be thankful that so far you haven't claimed that these 'evolutionists' are all atheists which is the normal brainless approach.
So long as you're talking about scientists actually working in the field of evolution, you could try using the term evolutionary biologist; you might get a little more respect.
Otherwise calling someone an 'evolutionist' simply because they generally accept the theory is akin to calling someone a gavityist because, well, maybe you can work it out.
Everything that is OBSERVED supports creation.
I see you've given up trying to make an argument in favour of bald assertion. I really doubt that that will work.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1645 by candle2, posted 02-05-2019 9:19 AM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1671 by candle2, posted 02-10-2019 8:51 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 1651 of 1748 (848505)
02-08-2019 5:53 AM
Reply to: Message 1649 by Phat
02-07-2019 6:02 PM


Re: Origins Of Reality
Phat writes:
Why cannot there be an idea before a human mind defines it? Why must ideas be contained only in human minds?
Because ideas can only exist in physical minds. They're not freefloating entities that we can trap and use. If you think they are you're going to have explain how and where.
I'm pretty sure I seen monkeys have ideas too. They get the lightbulb look.
One day machines might be able to have ideas and if we ever find any, ET too. But it takes a physical thing to have a thought.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1649 by Phat, posted 02-07-2019 6:02 PM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 1655 of 1748 (848521)
02-08-2019 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1653 by Phat
02-08-2019 12:38 PM


Re: Origins Of Reality
Phat writes:
Basically an initial Creator of all seen and unseen. A source for the fodder for Big Bangs. An initial source. An eternal conduit of creativity and encouragement.
That's basic theism
A validation that human minds are not all that we have to bank on. An insurance policy of Hope for an uncertain future with fallible humans likely to blow themselves up if left to their own instincts.
And that's wishful thinking.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1653 by Phat, posted 02-08-2019 12:38 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1657 by Phat, posted 02-08-2019 1:05 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1662 of 1748 (848529)
02-08-2019 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 1656 by Phat
02-08-2019 1:03 PM


Re: Origins Of Reality
Phat writes:
This explains why its easier for science to believe that in the beginning, matter reacted rather than an idea or thought to be the initial cause.
How many times Phat?? Science doesn't believe anything. It forms conclusions from evidence.
Science has conditioned you to always require the physical before the mental.
Sciences studies both the 'mental' and the physical. It's able to do this because the 'mental' is physical. The 'mental' happens inside a physical organ called the brain. Did you have somewhere else in mind (sic) for this idea to exist?
How would I be able to show you otherwise? That would be Gods job.
Right, You know it exists but sadly it's invisible and leaves no physical trace.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1656 by Phat, posted 02-08-2019 1:03 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1665 of 1748 (848533)
02-08-2019 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1657 by Phat
02-08-2019 1:05 PM


Re: Origins Of Reality
Phat writes:
So in essence, the beginning of modern science and wisdom used in defining the universe and all that is seen and unseen didn't start until humans evolved enough to begin our cognitive processes?
In as much as I can understand that, defining and understanding the universe couldn't have started until we obtained the conscious ability to do it. Surely that is obvious?
We started the process by making up stories to 'explain' things - hence your current beliefs. Science continues this process but in a rational way, based on observation and objective testing in order to separate the real from the imaginary.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1657 by Phat, posted 02-08-2019 1:05 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1666 by Phat, posted 02-08-2019 1:32 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1668 of 1748 (848536)
02-08-2019 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1666 by Phat
02-08-2019 1:32 PM


Re: Origins Of Reality
Phat writes:
So why can we not claim that the idea of multiverses is not simply made up?
But we can!
Multiverse is a hypothesis - a 'made up' idea. It's an idea that has some good mathematical support, but it's still an idea waiting to be verified. When it's verified by whatever method we can, it'll become a scientific fact.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1666 by Phat, posted 02-08-2019 1:32 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 1670 of 1748 (848544)
02-09-2019 3:56 AM


Deserves it's own thread...
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1672 of 1748 (848568)
02-10-2019 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 1671 by candle2
02-10-2019 8:51 AM


Re: Where does scripture say God sacrificed himself (HIMSELF)?
This doesn't seem like a reply relevant to me. Thank god.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1671 by candle2, posted 02-10-2019 8:51 AM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1673 by candle2, posted 02-10-2019 2:31 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1680 of 1748 (849469)
03-11-2019 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 1679 by Phat
03-11-2019 9:49 AM


Re: Origins Of Reality
Phat writes:
So is a prayer wasted effort?
Not much point praying to something that isn't there is there? Even if you'd rather believe that he does exist, we know that he doesn't answer prayers so there doesn't seem a lot of point in it.
On the other hand, some people seem to get comfort out of it. Perhaps it makes them feel less helpless?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1679 by Phat, posted 03-11-2019 9:49 AM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 1697 of 1748 (849822)
03-22-2019 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1695 by Phat
03-22-2019 12:04 PM


Re: Origins Of Reality
Phat writes:
Are you suggesting that IF Jesus existed and IF
He was to exist today, humanity would be better off were He an atheist?
Possibly the ultimate act of teenage rebellion, the son of god says he doesn't believe in his dad.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1695 by Phat, posted 03-22-2019 12:04 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1698 by Phat, posted 03-22-2019 8:49 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1700 of 1748 (849842)
03-23-2019 3:45 AM
Reply to: Message 1698 by Phat
03-22-2019 8:49 PM


Re: Origins Of Reality
Phat writes:
So where does He think He came from?
Joseph and Mary I expect.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1698 by Phat, posted 03-22-2019 8:49 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1702 by Phat, posted 03-23-2019 4:57 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 1721 of 1748 (851179)
04-20-2019 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1720 by Faith
04-20-2019 2:21 PM


Faith writes:
After my one mistaken foray into an argument for a particular date
Don't beat yourself up about it, fundies like you have been doing it for centuries. It's perfectly normal. As, of course, is your reaction to being wrong which was predicted before it (didn't) happen.
It has never happened and it will never happen, but that won't stop a whole new generation of primitives claiming it will happen in their lifetimes and being proven wrong yet again. Being proven wrong doesn't matter to them - or you.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1720 by Faith, posted 04-20-2019 2:21 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1722 by dwise1, posted 04-20-2019 7:52 PM Tangle has not replied

  
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