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Author Topic:   The Right Side of the News
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1066 of 5796 (850033)
03-28-2019 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1064 by Phat
03-28-2019 3:21 PM


Re: Answer to Diomedes on the Trump Bashing Thread.
I'll think about it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1064 by Phat, posted 03-28-2019 3:21 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 1067 of 5796 (850034)
03-28-2019 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1065 by Faith
03-28-2019 8:05 PM


Re: Answer to Diomedes on the Trump Bashing Thread.
No evidence" means, surprise surprise, "no evidence." And again, that's what Barr reported Mueller said.
Here is a link to Barr's summary, where does he claim that the Mueller invesigation found "no evidence"
Read Attorney General William Barr’s Summary of the Mueller Report - The New York Times

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1065 by Faith, posted 03-28-2019 8:05 PM Faith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1068 of 5796 (850037)
03-29-2019 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 1065 by Faith
03-28-2019 8:05 PM


Re: Answer to Diomedes on the Trump Bashing Thread.
Faith writes:
Sorry, Mueller found "no evidence" of collusion.
Absurd denials like this bring discussion to a crashing halt are why you'll not be permitted in threads where people are attempting to engage in constructive discussion. Of course evidence of collusion was found. For just for a few examples (there were so many contacts between the Trump campaign and Russians that listing them would take forever), there were all the false denials of contacts with Russians, there was the Trump Tower meeting followed by all the lying about it, there was the Manafort sharing of polling data with a Russian with contact to Russian intelligence, and there was Trump's behavior in Helsinki where he met with Putin with no one else present but translators, then he took the translator's notes and swore her to secrecy.
Mueller might have concluded that the evidence wasn't sufficient to criminally prove collusion, but it is still evidence. Trump wasn't cleared of collusion - it was only that the evidence wasn't enough to level criminal charges, which have a very high bar.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1065 by Faith, posted 03-28-2019 8:05 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1069 by Faith, posted 03-29-2019 11:17 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1069 of 5796 (850038)
03-29-2019 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 1068 by Percy
03-29-2019 10:25 AM


Re: Answer to Diomedes on the Trump Bashing Thread.
Absurd denials like yours are why there's no point for me in posting here any more. What utter insanity you believe, along with so much of the Left. The whole investigation was a fraud from the beginning yet Trump haters are apparently going to defend it against all reason.
"No evidence of collusion" is what Mueller said: "The long-awaited Mueller report is finally in, essentially echoing the president’s rallying cry for the better part of two years: No evidence of collusion." MSNBC Logo Apparently you and others know better than Mueller of course.
So the collusion delusion continues. And the obstruction lie too. I wonder if sanity will ever return to politics.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1068 by Percy, posted 03-29-2019 10:25 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1070 by DrJones*, posted 03-29-2019 11:52 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 1071 by JonF, posted 03-29-2019 12:59 PM Faith has not replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 1070 of 5796 (850041)
03-29-2019 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 1069 by Faith
03-29-2019 11:17 AM


Re: Answer to Diomedes on the Trump Bashing Thread.
he whole investigation was a fraud from the beginning
so the various criminal charges, guilty pleas and convictions were all faked?
Apparently you and others know better than Mueller of course.
Where did Mueller say there was no evidence of collusion Faith? The report hasn't been released, all we have is Barr's summary. Where in the summary are the words "no evidence of collusion".
And the obstruction lie too
what lie? According to the summary the report does not prove obstruction nor does it exonerate the president of obstruction. Being accused of something and being found not guilty does not mean that your accusers were lying.

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1069 by Faith, posted 03-29-2019 11:17 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1072 by JonF, posted 03-29-2019 12:59 PM DrJones* has not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 1071 of 5796 (850042)
03-29-2019 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 1069 by Faith
03-29-2019 11:17 AM


Re: Answer to Diomedes on the Trump Bashing Thread.
"No evidence of collusion" is what Mueller said
A lot of news outlets got that wrong. According to Barr's letter, which is all we have, presenting a quote from the report:
quote:
“[T]he investigation did not establish that members of the Trump Campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities.”
Lawyers are very careful in their choice of words. "Did not establish" does not mean "did not find evidence". It means the the evidence they found is insufficient to establish guilt beyond reasonable doubt in a court of law. It does not establish innocence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1069 by Faith, posted 03-29-2019 11:17 AM Faith has not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 1072 of 5796 (850043)
03-29-2019 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 1070 by DrJones*
03-29-2019 11:52 AM


Re: Answer to Diomedes on the Trump Bashing Thread.
He hasn't been found not guilty of any accusations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1070 by DrJones*, posted 03-29-2019 11:52 AM DrJones* has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 1073 of 5796 (850044)
03-29-2019 1:10 PM


For what it's worth, I think both sides are wrong in the way they're arguing what this finding means.
Trump is wrong in saying that the accusations were groundless and a conspiracy of the Democrats and the Democrats are wrong to continue to claim that Trump is somehow guilty of something regardless of the outcome of the investigation.
The fact is that he was investigated because there was evidence but that there was not enough of it nor was it compelling enough to lead to a charge that had a better than even chance of succeeding to convince a jury beyond reasonable doubt.
That's what it looks like from this distance anyway.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

Replies to this message:
 Message 1074 by Theodoric, posted 03-29-2019 2:18 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 1075 by JonF, posted 03-29-2019 2:28 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 1077 by Percy, posted 03-29-2019 4:11 PM Tangle has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 1074 of 5796 (850045)
03-29-2019 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 1073 by Tangle
03-29-2019 1:10 PM


But no one knows what evidence was found. As long as it remains secret there is and should be suspicions. If there was no evidence then why is there a need to keep it secret?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1073 by Tangle, posted 03-29-2019 1:10 PM Tangle has not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 1075 of 5796 (850046)
03-29-2019 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1073 by Tangle
03-29-2019 1:10 PM


Seems acurate to me.

This message is a reply to:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1076 of 5796 (850047)
03-29-2019 2:50 PM


OK, Mueller, a republican heavy-hitter but honestly impartial, says he didn’t find anything else he would argue in the present US court system. Fine.
Now what?
The alt-right has just been handed a golden gift by their champion yet again. Emboldened actions, many of them violent, are going to occur.
The gabfest that is the internet is where the emotional swing occurs. This is where modern politics is being made, and it is hyper emotional. Not a good thing.
The alt-right will make use of that emotion to its maximum advantage. Watch what happens in the upcoming Trump rallies.
How far lost to the right has our society become? Could this bozo get re-elected?
What kind of society have we just lost? To be replaced by what?

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

Replies to this message:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1077 of 5796 (850054)
03-29-2019 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1073 by Tangle
03-29-2019 1:10 PM


Your summary makes it seem like it was Trump who was being investigated. The investigation was actually into the Trump campaign, so rewriting this a bit:
Tangle writes:
Trump is wrong lying in saying that the accusations were groundless and a conspiracy of the Democrats, and the Democrats are wrong to continue to claim correct that Trump members of the Trump campaign is somehow have been indicted or pled guilty to various crimes, of something regardless of the outcome which is a direct result of the investigation.
The fact is that he the Trump campaign was investigated because there was evidence but that there was not enough of it nor was it compelling enough to lead to a charge that had a better than even chance of succeeding to convince a jury beyond reasonable doubt.
What is publicly known already tells us the Trump campaign colluded. For just one example, when Donald Jr. was told the Russians wanted to provide dirt on Hillary Clinton (accepting foreign help in an election is illegal), instead of reporting it to the FBI he replied, "I love it." Then he actually held a meeting in which he expected to receive foreign help in the election. Paul Manafort and Jared Kushner also attended. When the meeting came to light President Trump lied about the meeting, claiming the agenda was adoptions.
Even just what's publicly known screams collusion. If there truly wasn't any collusion it sure wasn't for lack of trying - by last count there were 102 contacts between members of the Trump campaign and Russians.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1073 by Tangle, posted 03-29-2019 1:10 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1078 by Tangle, posted 03-29-2019 5:12 PM Percy has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1078 of 5796 (850056)
03-29-2019 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1077 by Percy
03-29-2019 4:11 PM


Sure, that's what democrats say.
Never-the-less, Trump will not face any charges and the democrats will bleat pointlessly about it. Time to move on.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1077 by Percy, posted 03-29-2019 4:11 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1079 by Percy, posted 03-29-2019 6:37 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 1080 by Tanypteryx, posted 03-29-2019 7:20 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 1079 of 5796 (850057)
03-29-2019 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 1078 by Tangle
03-29-2019 5:12 PM


Tangle writes:
Sure, that's what Democrats say.
I'm not a Democrat. You didn't quote anything I actually said so I can't know what specifically you're referring to, but only the brief last paragraph contained any opinion (and not much of that) - all the rest of my post was factually true. Trump *is* lying when he calls the accusations groundless and a Democratic conspiracy, members of his campaign *have* been indicted or pled guilty, and my account of the Trump Tower meeting was accurate.
Nevertheless, Trump will not face any charges and the Democrats will bleat pointlessly about it.
Again, Trump wasn't the target of the Mueller investigation. It was the Trump campaign, and again, members of his campaign *have* been indicted or pled guilty, just not for collusion or obstruction of justice. But despite that, the Trump Tower meeting (among other things) was absolutely collusion, and the part of Barr's letter about collusion raises many questions, among them, whether Barr summarized Mueller accurately. And concerning obstruction of justice, Barr *was* appointed by Trump after he wrote an unsolicited 19-page memo arguing that a sitting president couldn't be guilty of obstruction of justice. We have the foxes guarding the henhouse. We need to see the report.
Also curious is deciding not to charge collusion before all the court cases are complete. For example, Roger Stone, whose trial date isn't until November, may be found to have colluded with Julian Assange who in turn, should he ever end up in a US court, may be found to have colluded with Russia.
Time to move on.
You're not specific about who you think should move on. As far as discussion here, that's each person's personal decision. As far as the Democratic candidates, they should probably keep their focus on governmental rather than political issues. As far as legal matters, there are so many unanswered questions, not to mention the investigations by the Southern District of New York into such things as conspiracy against the United States, false statements, mail fraud, wire fraud, money laundering, disclosure violations, and foreign contributions to the campaign, that moving on at this point seems extraordinarily premature.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1078 by Tangle, posted 03-29-2019 5:12 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


(1)
Message 1080 of 5796 (850058)
03-29-2019 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1078 by Tangle
03-29-2019 5:12 PM


Never-the-less, Trump will not face any charges and the democrats will bleat pointlessly about it. Time to move on.
Trump may not face charges, but other have and more may still face charges.
All the facts and all the evidence from Mueller's investigation and all the others must be public so Trump and his cronies cannot continue to lie about what actually happened without it being pointed out publicly.
Trump and his cronies have not behaved like honest, innocent people since the beginning of his campaign. They protest their innocence far too much and engage in malicious character assassination against everyone opposing or investigating them and they have corrupted every republican member of Congress to do their bidding.
They are totally shameless.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1078 by Tangle, posted 03-29-2019 5:12 PM Tangle has not replied

  
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