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Author | Topic: Immigrants good for me and you? Bad? How to make a good answer that is accurate? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
LamarkNewAge Member (Idle past 738 days) Posts: 2236 Joined: |
I want to thank you, Phat, for the open mind you constantly display on immigration issues.
I wish we could find some safeguards to put in place, to make higher immigration rates possible. Democrats have yet to demonstrate any real efforts. (There is a job training provision in place for an employee, who is part of a large group of workers, employed in a business, who loses his job due to trade deals. The bar is unfortunately set a bit too high, and I forget the exact details.) I am glad that we have one union member here that is not anti-immigration. Democrats need to make the number much higher, and the lack of support for Open Borders, among Union folk, might actually be an issue where those at the top (Democrats in Congress, Senate, DNC etc.) are to blame.
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LamarkNewAge Member (Idle past 738 days) Posts: 2236 Joined: |
My tax is not an idea which indicates a belief (on my part) that immigrants don't already cover their fair share of taxes.
It is just a necessary trade-off to enable higher immigration levels per year. It is about political feasibility. (And it would give the entire country a chance to look at the benefits of immigration with a renewed focus and clearer eye)
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LamarkNewAge Member (Idle past 738 days) Posts: 2236 Joined: |
First, people need to go to the link.
(click on the Patch website link, at bottom of my AP article paste, to see the graph showing border arrests per year from 2000 to 2018, which is impressive enough. But also see the graph showing the number of border patrol officers from the same years. This graph deserves its own topic. Wow.)
quote: I would see this as chaos caused by artificial borders, which are a man-made strangulation that causes unexpected surges at times. The pressure has been caused by a choking border. Opponents of open borders will say that an actual open border would have surges as well (only more often and worse). I would respond that shelters would not cost too much (for this number of people especially), and much (if not all) of the "crisis" is simply from hatred of "welfare".
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LamarkNewAge Member (Idle past 738 days) Posts: 2236 Joined: |
See this long article showing the complications with Trump's idea from the get-go.
Catch and release, explained: Trump’s new border agenda is about tightening the screws on immigrants entering the US - Vox
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Chiroptera Inactive Member
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From the New York Times:
Migrants in Custody at Hospitals Are Treated Like Felons, Doctors Say Border control policy is interfering with the medical care that immigrants are receiving.
As apprehensions of migrants climb at the southwest border, and dozens a day are taken to community hospitals, medical providers are challenging practices ” by both government agencies and their own hospitals ” that they say are endangering patients and undermining recent pledges to improve health care for migrants. The problems range from shackling patients to beds and not permitting them to use restrooms to pressuring doctors to discharge patients quickly and certify that they can be held in crowded detention facilities that immigration officials themselves say are unsafe. Physicians say that needed follow-up care for long-term detainees is often neglected, and that they have been prevented from informing family members about the status of critically ill patients. Agency vehicles parked conspicuously near hospital entrances, health providers say, are also stoking fear and interfering with broader immigrant care. Whether these people are refugees legally entitled to be in the country to seek asylum, or whether they entered the US illegally, everyone is entitled to decent medical care. I also feel that every person who is in custody should be treated respectfully and with dignity, I suppose some people may make an exception to those guilty of heinous crimes, but surely simply entering into the country illegally doesn't rise to that level of "heinous"?It says something about the qualities of our current president that the best argument anyone has made in his defense is that he didn’t know what he was talking about. -- Paul Krugman
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LamarkNewAge Member (Idle past 738 days) Posts: 2236 Joined: |
quote: A September 18 2017 New York Times article was hyperlinked. $63 billion more,not less, it seems. So much for the big refugee cost.
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5930 Joined: Member Rating: 5.8 |
That immigrants, especially the undocumented ones, pay more into the system than they take out is old news.
We started discussing the actual financial impact of immigrants on the US in The Right Side of the News at the end of January 2019 starting around Message 721 -- you came into that topic much later on, like just a month ago. Here's part of what I wrote in that message; follow the topic thread from there and also a bit of what had preceded it:
DWise1 writes:
quote: One of the several schemes for how the Wall will be paid for is the claim that by eliminating illegal immigration we can take the money that illegal immigration is costing us and put that to building the Wall, make the Wall almost self-funding. That ignores the tax revenues we get from illegal immigrants, from the taxes that they pay. While "independent contractor" illegals (eg, day laborers, home cleaners, gardeners) can operate on a cash only basis being paid directly by their customers, illegals who work for a company and receive a paycheck need to go through the motions, usually with fake IDs (like the ones that Trump's resorts got for their own illegals). Those illegals get payroll taxes (eg, FICA for Social Security and Medicare) and income tax withholding taken out of their pay. And since they don't have valid IDs, they cannot receive any Social Security nor Medicare benefits, nor (to my knowledge) can they file income taxes to get any refund. Plus all illegal immigrants pay the same day-to-day taxes that we all pay (eg, sales tax, gas tax, property taxes through their rent payments). It turns out that illegal workers pay more in taxes than they receive as benefits. The "cost of illegal immigration" turns out to be a net gain, not a liability -- http://www.ncsl.org/...te-reports-on-fiscal-immigration.aspx. So even if we were to completely eliminate illegal immigration, we would end up losing money instead of gaining. And that's not even including the adverse effects of stores losing customers, landlords losing renters, and businesses losing employees.
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5930 Joined: Member Rating: 5.8
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I'll use your message to springboard off of to talk about the British concentration camps in the Boer War (c. 1900) which resulted in the deaths of 26,000 women and children.
I first heard about them in the recent British future-history mini-series on HBO, Years and Years. In that series ("20 minutes into the future", though more like up to 2030), the UK gets a Trumpian PM (though far more intelligent and eloquent) who implements a system of "erstwhiles"; ie, erstwhile facilities like military bases, hospitals, etc, that are converted into concentration camps for refugees. In that show, the UK government's plan was to crowd as many refugees as possible into these camps, including those sick with yet another new bird flu, with no medical care, practically no sanitation, and meager food, and let nature take its course. In the show, PM Vivian Fox brought up the Boer War concentration camps as an example of how effectively such camps can eliminate undesirables, which as I said is the first that I had ever heard of those camps. Now, aren't those the kinds of conditions that the US government is now creating in its own concentration camps?
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