Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 64 (9071 total)
83 online now:
dwise1, jar, kjsimons, Omnivorous, PaulK, Percy (Admin) (6 members, 77 visitors)
Newest Member: FossilDiscovery
Post Volume: Total: 893,021 Year: 4,133/6,534 Month: 347/900 Week: 53/150 Day: 26/27 Hour: 0/9


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   What would a transitional fossil look like?
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 279 days)
Posts: 16112
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 31 of 403 (850344)
04-06-2019 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Faith
04-06-2019 3:20 PM


I did spell out some time ago the differences that have to be navigated to get from the reptilian ear to the mammalian ear, which is a much more limited project than getting from a cow to a fish but I may try that one two. Remove legs from genome. Add fins and fish tail and fish breathing apparatus. This is silly. Just to make those two changes would require millions of years of mutations and still you wouldn't get them.

Fish aren't actually descended from cows, so your argument (such as it is) is about as pertinent as when Buzsaw, God rest him, proved that the Mississippi River couldn't possibly have produced the Grand Canyon.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Faith, posted 04-06-2019 3:20 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Faith, posted 04-06-2019 3:42 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 672 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 32 of 403 (850345)
04-06-2019 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Dr Adequate
04-06-2019 3:36 PM


Re: comic relief
Randomn variation plus selection gets you a version of the same creature, it's nothing but microevolution or standard variation. You can't get macroevolution out of any such events. The reason it doesn't work is that macroevolution requires something completely new to be formed. All those mechanisms do is rearrange what already exists.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-06-2019 3:36 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by RAZD, posted 04-06-2019 4:40 PM Faith has replied
 Message 40 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-06-2019 5:30 PM Faith has replied

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


(1)
Message 33 of 403 (850346)
04-06-2019 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Faith
04-06-2019 3:22 PM


Re: comic relief
Yep, it took millions and billions of years because the changes are teeny and weeny.

Any changes that didn't result in a viable creature didn't get passed on A small percentage of them accumulated to produce "coherent new creatures". If you want to argue otherwise, show your math. Your argument from ignorance is irrelevant.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Faith, posted 04-06-2019 3:22 PM Faith has taken no action

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 672 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 34 of 403 (850347)
04-06-2019 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Dr Adequate
04-06-2019 3:39 PM


It really doesn't matter what you want to descend from what. It's impossible unless the genetic stuff is already present for the completely new creature. For instance getting a human being from a chimpanzee is equally impossible. Each has its own genome that makes the given creature and nothing else. To get from the chimpanzee to the human being requires a whole slew of changes into something altogether different from the chimpanzee, things that don't exist in the chimpanzee genome and that makes any such transformation impossible because mutation has to invent something completely new rather than simply changing something that already exists into another version of it which is already potential in the genome anyway.. You all imagine it's possible because of some similarities between them and that's the extent of the whole story. Your imagination.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-06-2019 3:39 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-06-2019 5:29 PM Faith has replied
 Message 43 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-06-2019 6:05 PM Faith has replied

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 35 of 403 (850348)
04-06-2019 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Faith
04-06-2019 3:30 PM


Re: comic relief
millions of trials and errors then before any of it amounts to anything coherent at all

A few hundred thousand years is enough for significant changes.

And there is in fact no reason at that level of probability why anything coherent would ever emerge.

Show your calculations.

Edited by JonF, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Faith, posted 04-06-2019 3:30 PM Faith has taken no action

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5055
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 36 of 403 (850349)
04-06-2019 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Faith
04-06-2019 3:20 PM


... , which is a much more limited project than getting from a cow to a fish but I may try that one two. Remove legs from genome. Add fins and fish tail and fish breathing apparatus. This is silly.

What kind of insanity are you talking about? Who is talking about a cow evolving into a fish? Nobody but you, as far as I can see. That is complete and utter nonsense, but unfortunately it is all too typical of what creationists think which is why creationist claims are so utterly stupid.

Faith, you are demonstrating beyond any shadow of a doubt that you had no understanding of evolution nor of how it works. If you want to argue against evolution, then you first need to learn something about it. I do realize that ignorance is your forte, but that doesn't change the fact that ignorance does not work.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Faith, posted 04-06-2019 3:20 PM Faith has taken no action

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17166
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 37 of 403 (850350)
04-06-2019 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Faith
04-06-2019 3:35 PM


Re: comic relief
quote:

Gosh you're all so good at tit for tat. Not much else I fear.

You’re only good at empty bluster. Because the reality is that you don’t understand the processes.

See Message 27 for examples.

For instance:


an accident of replication that changes something in the genome into something that has nothing whatever to do with the creature that genome constructs

Or would you like to explain how that actually makes sense ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Faith, posted 04-06-2019 3:35 PM Faith has taken no action

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 632 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 38 of 403 (850352)
04-06-2019 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Faith
04-06-2019 3:39 PM


more comic relief
Randomn variation plus selection gets you a version of the same creature, it's nothing but microevolution or standard variation. You can't get macroevolution out of any such events. ...

And yet, curiously, it happens. Speciation has been observed, and that (with the formation of a nested hierarchy) is the essence of macroevolution according to the scientific definition of the term ... as opposed to the creationist definition and misuse of the term (they actually mean magic transformation, which doesn't occur).

... The reason it doesn't work is that macroevolution requires something completely new to be formed. All those mechanisms do is rearrange what already exists.

Nope. Macroevolution only requires speciation and the formation of nested hierarchies as each breeding population continues to microevolve, diverging from their ancestral population.

... All those mechanisms do is rearrange what already exists.

Plus mutations that produce novel variations.

... macroevolution requires something completely new ...

What is "something completely new" in your view? For me it is novel variations produced by mutations, ones that are selected via normal breeding because they are not deleterious. These occur regularly and have been observed.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Faith, posted 04-06-2019 3:39 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Faith, posted 04-06-2019 5:42 PM RAZD has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 279 days)
Posts: 16112
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 39 of 403 (850353)
04-06-2019 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Faith
04-06-2019 3:42 PM


It really doesn't matter what you want to descend from what. It's impossible unless the genetic stuff is already present for the completely new creature. For instance getting a human being from a chimpanzee is equally impossible. Each has its own genome that makes the given creature and nothing else. To get from the chimpanzee to the human being requires a whole slew of changes into something altogether different from the chimpanzee, things that don't exist in the chimpanzee genome and that makes any such transformation impossible because mutation has to invent something completely new rather than simply changing something that already exists into another version of it which is already potential in the genome anyway.

(1) How are you distinguishing between things which are "another version" and things which are "completely new"?

(2) How would we distinguish between these two things on the chromosomal level? I.e. if I showed you two sequences of A G C and T, how would we determine if one was something "completely new" compared to the other, or if it was just "another version" of it?

(3) Why do you claim that the production of something "completely new" is impossible? You have supplied no evidence nor argument but just assumed this as an axiom.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Faith, posted 04-06-2019 3:42 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Faith, posted 04-06-2019 5:58 PM Dr Adequate has taken no action

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 279 days)
Posts: 16112
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 40 of 403 (850354)
04-06-2019 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Faith
04-06-2019 3:39 PM


Re: comic relief
Randomn variation plus selection gets you a version of the same creature, it's nothing but microevolution or standard variation. You can't get macroevolution out of any such events. The reason it doesn't work is that macroevolution requires something completely new to be formed. All those mechanisms do is rearrange what already exists.

The last sentence is of course complete bullshit, as you would know if you knew anything at all about genetics. This invalidates the nonsense that precedes it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Faith, posted 04-06-2019 3:39 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Faith, posted 04-06-2019 6:20 PM Dr Adequate has taken no action

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 672 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 41 of 403 (850358)
04-06-2019 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by RAZD
04-06-2019 4:40 PM


Re: more comic relief
Random variation plus selection gets you a version of the same creature, it's nothing but microevolution or standard variation. You can't get macroevolution out of any such events. ...

And yet, curiously, it happens.

Something you CALL "macroevolution" happens. It's all word magic, semantics, nothing in physical reality that deserves the name at all.

Speciation has been observed, and that (with the formation of a nested hierarchy) is the essence of macroevolution according to the scientific definition of the term ... as opposed to the creationist definition and misuse of the term (they actually mean magic transformation, which doesn't occur).

Something you CALL "speciation" occurs. The whole ToE is fantasy. "Speciation" is wishful thinking, it is not speciation at all that you are calling by that name. It is a variation on the genetic stuff built into a creature's genome that occurs at a point in a series of variations where a lot of homozygosity has occurred, making breeding very iffy with the new variation. That's all it is. If you examined the DNA of every "speciation" event I'm very sure you'd find out that it has less rather than more ability to vary further, which is hardly a precondition for bringing about a new species. I don't trust science to do this honestly of course.

... The reason it doesn't work is that macroevolution requires something completely new to be formed. All those mechanisms do is rearrange what already exists.

Nope. Macroevolution only requires speciation and the formation of nested hierarchies as each breeding population continues to microevolve, diverging from their ancestral population.

Nope. The "speciation" has produced something that has much LESS ability to go on evolving, so it isn't going to "continue to microevolve" except in the fevered imagination of evos. You assume it. Except for short time when the variation may play out to the very end of its capacity to vary you've never actually seen this. It's all theory. You imagine it happens because the theory says it happens. The most likely end result of the event you call speciation is extinction though it may survive for a while without any further evolution at all or just a couple of changes before the end comes.

... All those mechanisms do is rearrange what already exists.

Plus mutations that produce novel variations.

That's the thing. You can't GET any truly novel variations. All you can get is variations on whatever already exists. You may get something that is novel in that context just because it's already fairly depleted, but you won't get anything truly novel, merely a variation on whatever exists in the genome.

... macroevolution requires something completely new ...

What is "something completely new" in your view?

Anything that isn't already in the stock of variations of the genome. Something the particular gene doesn't code for. Say a human shaped nose with human skin color for the chimpanzee's flat black nose or something like that. Something that is not in the creature's genome. Or an extra chamber to get from the reptile ear to the mammalian ear, and in the right place. Yes you have to have that kind of newness or you can't get a new creature. And that sort of newness isn't going to happen.

For me it is novel variations produced by mutations, ones that are selected via normal breeding because they are not deleterious. These occur regularly and have been observed.

But that sort of variation is within the existing genetic stuff of the genome. It is not truly novel, it is just another variation on an existing trait. You cannot get a new creature with this sort of variation even if you have millions of them over millions of years. You will only get variations on the same creature. The genome itself has to be changed.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by RAZD, posted 04-06-2019 4:40 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Dogmafood, posted 04-06-2019 10:51 PM Faith has replied
 Message 53 by RAZD, posted 04-07-2019 7:46 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 672 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 42 of 403 (850362)
04-06-2019 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Dr Adequate
04-06-2019 5:29 PM


(1) How are you distinguishing between things which are "another version" and things which are "completely new"?

Another version would be a different eye color from the eye color gene or genes, a different texture of fur from the fur texture gene or genes. Something completely new would be scales instead of fur perhaps, or a completely different kind of eye.

Sorry have to take a break.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-06-2019 5:29 PM Dr Adequate has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by PaulK, posted 04-07-2019 1:54 AM Faith has taken no action

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 3268
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 43 of 403 (850363)
04-06-2019 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Faith
04-06-2019 3:42 PM


It really doesn't matter what you want to descend from what.

It matters to us, because we are looking at data that show what the most likely lines of descent are. The data are both molecular and paleontological.

It is silly for you to carry on an argument about fantasy evolutionary events as if we are arguing for a position that you made up.

It's impossible unless the genetic stuff is already present for the completely new creature.

The only kind of "completely new creature" is a normal baby that is created by the mating of a male and female and that carries a few mutations of the mix of parent's genes. It is a brand new baby where one didn't exist before.

For instance getting a human being from a chimpanzee is equally impossible.

This is absolutely true, of course. Why would you use this as an example when only an idiot would think otherwise?

Each has its own genome that makes the given creature and nothing else.

Obviously. Why would you use this as an example when only an idiot would think otherwise?

To get from the chimpanzee to the human being requires a whole slew of changes into something altogether different from the chimpanzee,

And none of us are arguing this has happened, so why are you acting as if this is our position?

things that don't exist in the chimpanzee genome and that makes any such transformation impossible

And interestingly, none of us are arguing that, so why are you acting as if this is our position?

because mutation has to invent something completely new rather than simply changing something that already exists into another version of it which is already potential in the genome anyway.

I can't tell what this means.

If you think this is our position you are wrong.

If this is your position it is still wrong.

You all imagine it's possible because of some similarities between them and that's the extent of the whole story. Your imagination.

Your ability to read our imaginations is as faulty as your ability to accurately describe or indeed understand our position on evolution or transitional fossils.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Faith, posted 04-06-2019 3:42 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Faith, posted 04-06-2019 6:29 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 672 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 44 of 403 (850364)
04-06-2019 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Dr Adequate
04-06-2019 5:30 PM


Re: comic relief
Natural Selection, Genetic Drift, Mutations and Gene Flow are the four mechanisms of evolution. I've discussed them many times on former threads. It's really a silly list in a way. Natural Selection, or simple geographic isolation of a portion of a population, which is a kind of selection, produces the changes that can produce a population with new characteristics. Genetic drift, understood as a form of selection, does the same thing. Mutations have to be selected or they're dead in the water as far as changing a population goes, and gene flow just interferes with selection and reproductive isolation which is necessary for selection to be effective, so it muddies up any population with new characteristics that might develop through selection.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-06-2019 5:30 PM Dr Adequate has taken no action

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 672 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 45 of 403 (850365)
04-06-2019 6:25 PM


It would be nice if anyone would actually think for a change.

Back later.


  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.1
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2022