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Author | Topic: What would a transitional fossil look like? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Meddle Member (Idle past 1526 days) Posts: 179 From: Scotland Joined:
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But they don't. The differences are much greater than those between cats and dogs: I described the differences that define their respective genomes. The chimp's extra long muscular arms, muscular torso and short legs with hand-like feet, plus skull shape etc etc etc, amount to greater differences in body structure than those between cats and dogs. Can I ask how do you think the genome creates the structures of the body? You talk about mutations in terms of overall damaging genes, which suggests you are thinking of genes that code for proteins. But this is only part of the story, because there is also the mechanisms which control when these genes are expressed and how they interact.An embryo is a population of cells and as they multiply gene expression changes. So cells in a certain region form a limb bud, elongates to form an arm and finally a hand, all while the timing of when different genes are expressed changes. What you describe as differences between humans and chimps is simply differences in timing of when genes are expressed. It may not even need mutations the protein coding genes for these differences to occur. Another example for humans and chimps is the skull development of the foetus. For both species development is almost identical, with expression of genes at first developing the size of the cranium, then there is a point when this expression is reduced and instead the expression switches more to development of the jaws. In humans this switch occurs later in development than in chimps. Edited by Meddle, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1699 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Can I ask how do you think the genome creates the structures of the body? I was merely observing the fact that the adult body structure is basically the same in each species. I assume this is controlled by some part of the genome and I would like to know more about how the genome produces it but I don't see the relevance of the stages of growth as you are discussing it. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1699 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
You aren't thinking and there is nothing hilarious about any of this except your refusal to think about what I'm saying. The bulldog and the whippit body structures differ in an overall way, the bulldog more squashed, the whippet more elongated, but nevertheless the basic structure is similar in the sense I was talking about it: more rigid build than a cat's in both cases, same limb shape, head positioned above shoulders etc. Differences in size, length etc., don't matter in my frame of reference which I would think would be obvious from the fact that I was clearly referring to ALL dog breeds. The basic shape is the same. Actually considering what I said would help.
For all I know and for all you said the scientists don't say anything appreciably different on this subject than I'm saying. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1699 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I made a simple observatgion about the similarity of body structure as seen on charts illustrating trilobites. I said nothing whatever about what scientists say about it AND NEITHER DID YOU. You assume a lot. For all you know they would agree about my general point. You don't bother to think you just blow hot air.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9581 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 6.5
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Faith writes: I made a simple observatgion about the similarity of body structure as seen on charts illustrating trilobites. You actually said this
All the changes are superficial, not much of a record for the ToE which should produce far more dramatic changes if species-to-species evolution were actually true. Which is a crass and stupid thing to say which no scientist would agree with.
quote: Trilobite - Wikipedia Basic, basic stuff.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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JonF Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 6174 Joined: |
Differences in size, length etc., don't matter in my frame of reference which I would think would be obvious from the fact that I was clearly referring to ALL dog breeds. The basic shape is the same.
And the same as cats. Plus, humans and chimps are the same by your criteria. Edited by JonF, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1699 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I described the differences between humans and chimps to show the differences. They are far less similar than dogs and cats to each other.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1699 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
What I said scientists would likely agree with is the general three-lobed shape as the basic structure of trilobites.
But the willful ignorance here is really not worth bothering about. I can talk to other people who will get the point and you all can continue to deceive yourselves as you like. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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JonF Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 6174 Joined: |
They are far more similar than dogs and cats. Your ignorant description of your fantasy notwithstanding.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1699 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Gosh a bald assertion. A really stupid one too.
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JonF Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 6174 Joined: |
Yeah, it's easy to find people as ignorant as you that will cheer you on. But here you are.
No, that's not at all what you said scientists would agree with.
You actually said this
All the changes are superficial, not much of a record for the ToE which should produce far more dramatic changes if species-to-species evolution were actually true.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1699 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
You are not reading the right statement. But that one is true too. The structure remains as described, it's the superficial parts that vary, and if the ToE were true the structure would change too. And I didn't say scientists would agree with me about this, just about the basic sameness of the structure.
What I've been saying is simple and true. Not worth talking to idiots about such things. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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JonF Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 6174 Joined: |
Just like your bald assertion that the differnces are great.
But mine is true
quote: Chimps vs. Humans: How Are We Different? | Live Science
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JonF Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 6174 Joined: |
[qqs]and if the ToE were true the structure would change too.[/qs]
Not necessarily, especially if the environment didn't change much.
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dwise1 Member Posts: 6077 Joined: Member Rating: 7.2 |
Plus, humans and chimps are the same by your criteria. Actually, not just Faith's hyper-simplistic phenotype criterion (ie, having the same "basic shape") would classify humans and chimps as being of the same species, but also her criterion of having the same basic genome. Humans and chimps have many of the same genes in the same places on the same chromosomes. Ah, she would equivocate and back-pedal yet again, humans have 23 pairs of chromosomes instead of 24 as chimps have. In fact, if you look at human Chromosome 2, you find that it was formed by the end-to-end fusion of two ancestral chromosomes which are still separate in chimps -- its very structure demonstrates that it is two fused chromosomes (eg, a second vestigial centromere, vestigial telomeres in the middle of the chromosome). Not only have we identified the two "ape chromosomes" that fused to form human Chromosome 2, but we have also found the same genes in the same places on human Chromosome 2 that are on the two "ape chromosomes". Additionally, for decades now biochemists working with protein sequence comparisons have found the genetic commonalities between chimps and humans to be amazing. In 1990 I wrote a report on Duane Gish's deliberate lie on national TV about a bullfrog protein showing humans and bullfrogs to be more closely related (the most evidence he ever provided to support that was admitting that it was based on a joke he had overheard about the protein having been taken from an enchanted prince who had been turned into a frog ... seriously!). At the time, I posted it in a CompServe library and have re-posted it on my site: THE BULLFROG AFFAIR or The Enchanted Prince Croaks. Here is my report what Dr. Russell Doolittle reported on the PBS documentary (copied from that show's transcript):
quote:Well, now according to Faith's "new and improved" criteria, it turns out that humans and chimps are indeed the same species and the differences are purely cultural. On that page, I review several creationist claims about protein comparisons, including Walter Brown's infamous rattlesnake protein (which was still in his on-line book last I saw, though in a footnote without any details). From http://cre-ev.dwise1.net/bullfrog.html#RATTLESNAKE:
quote:Note also that chimpanzees were also not included in the Dayhoff study. About half a decade after having written that, I obtained a library of protein sequences for various organisms and software to perform those comparisons. I ran the comparison of cytochrome c between humans and chimps. Do you remember how rhesus monkeys and humans differed by one amino acid? The difference between chimps and humans was zero. Chimp and human cytochrome c are identical. Yet more evidence for Faith to show that humans and chimps are of the same species. Well, if for no other reason than for sh17s and giggles, here is Gish's deliberate lie on national TV. Copied from that same PBS documentary described above, here is Dr. Duane Gish's response to Dr. Doolittle's story of chimp and human protein comparisons:
quote:What followed was a comedy of errors in Gish's attempts to perform a cover-up, which ended with him claiming that if we wanted that evidence so much, then it was our responsibility to come up with that evidence, not his. Gee, doesn't that sound so very familiar from all our dealings with creationists? It also became common practice for years afterwards to respond to typical creationist BS, especially when done by Gish himself, with cries of "Bullfrog!" instead of "Bullshit!" BTW, the original researchers didn't know what Gish had meant by his references to chicken proteins, but I think that I've tracked it down to Gary Parker's misrepresentation of the book, The Structure and Action of Proteins by Richard Dickerson and Irving Geis (1969, page 78). In their discussion of "molecular clocks" which is dating estimation based on the accumulation of neutral mutations (and therefore not subject to natural selection), they used the example of the evolution of lysozymes into alpha-lactalbumin, which were subject to selection, to warn against over-simplistic application of the "molecular clock" idea. Either Gary Parker was unable to understand what Dickerson was writing or else he deliberately misrepresented it. The answer to that question is pretty much a toss-up.
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