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Author Topic:   Any practical use for Universal Common Ancestor?
Dredge
Member (Idle past 92 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 463 of 1385 (850528)
04-10-2019 3:31 AM
Reply to: Message 433 by Tangle
04-07-2019 3:05 AM


Re: Any practical use for Universal Common Ancestor?
Tangle writes:
In other words, it's the ToE
I didn't know ToE included "a God of the gaps".
Are you saying that process of evolving from 'some kind of rodent' to moden whales required your god to intervene at each/every stage?
More or less.
In other words you can't accept the ToE for religious reasons but can't deny the evidence for the ToE. Cake and eat it eh?
1. I reject human evolution on religious and scientific grounds. But I have no religious objection to the evolution of non-human creatures - however, I reject such evolution for scientific reasons.
2. I've always said evolution is the best scientific explanation for the history of life. However, I think it's a rather poor explanation, whereas creation is an excellent explanation. All I'm doing is following the evidence, wherever it leads.
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 433 by Tangle, posted 04-07-2019 3:05 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 465 by Tangle, posted 04-10-2019 4:05 AM Dredge has replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 92 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 464 of 1385 (850529)
04-10-2019 3:39 AM
Reply to: Message 432 by Tangle
04-07-2019 2:52 AM


Why don't you just admit you goofed up and painted yourself into corner?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 432 by Tangle, posted 04-07-2019 2:52 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 92 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 490 of 1385 (850756)
04-14-2019 3:13 AM
Reply to: Message 438 by Tangle
04-07-2019 3:38 AM


Re: Another useful application of evolutionary theory
Tangle writes:
And if it wasn't for Darwin, most religionists would be pushing the myth that the life we see around us was put here fully formed 6,000 years ago.
1. If everyone believed that, it wouldn't make a scrap of difference to applied science ... which just goes to show how irrelevant interpretations of ancient history (including Darwinism) are to real-world science.
2. You might be surprised how many religionists today accept the scientific concensus that says the history of life on earth began billons of years old - science which has nothing to do with Darwin.
There is nothing about punctuated equilibrium that is a challenge to the ToE; it's merely another discovery about how it works.
1. PE is a far-fetched, band-aid measure that attempts to cover up all those "embarrassing" (Gould) gaps in the fossil record.
2. The untestable theory of PE is a "discovery"? Hilarious! PE is an untestable theory within an untestable theory - and this is science?
And it doesn't help you either. Life began billions of years before the Cambrian and evolution continued for hundreds of millions afterwards. Insescts, fish and mammals did not exist in the Cambrian and moden man - the apparent reason for god's creation - is less than quarter of a million years old.
... which is why I describe the history of life as PROGRESSIVE creation.
moden man - the apparent reason for god's creation - is less than quarter of a million years old.
Please be advised that the first human beings didn't evolve but were created from inanimate matter 6000-10000 years ago.
moden man - the apparent reason for god's creation ... million years old.
Your god took a hell of a long way round to get to the point. Almost like he didn't know what he was doing.
An atheist with preconceptions about how and why God went about creating life on earth ... that adds up to a fascinating melange of thoughts.
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 438 by Tangle, posted 04-07-2019 3:38 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 492 by Tangle, posted 04-14-2019 3:37 AM Dredge has replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 92 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 491 of 1385 (850757)
04-14-2019 3:37 AM
Reply to: Message 439 by RAZD
04-07-2019 8:19 AM


Re: Progressive Creation
RAZD writes:
"Progressive Creation" has no predictive ability
So what?
it can't tell you where or when god/s will give/gave you the finger.
I've actually covered this before: I believe "God's finger" in evident every time a species from one genus appears to "evolve" into a species of a different genus (something that has never been observed, despite thousands of years of selective breeding by human beings, using every technique under the sun, trying to change the morphology of various animals and plants).
It has no practical application
You expect a religous (non-scientific) theory to have a practical, scientific application?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 439 by RAZD, posted 04-07-2019 8:19 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 497 by RAZD, posted 04-14-2019 9:02 AM Dredge has not replied
 Message 505 by Theodoric, posted 04-14-2019 6:16 PM Dredge has replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 92 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 493 of 1385 (850759)
04-14-2019 3:42 AM
Reply to: Message 442 by edge
04-07-2019 11:45 AM


Re: Another useful application of evolutionary theory
edge writes:
Great! Then you can give us the diagnostic evidence that support your PC model over the evolution model.
A progressive creation model easily accounts for the Cambrian explosion, the never-ending missing-links in the fossil record and the sudden appearances of fully-formed creatures with no evolutionary history. The theory of evolution has to explain these problems away with yet more theory - punctuated equilibrium, for example.
After that, maybe you can give us some of the possible applications of your PC to practical science.
You haven't thought this through, have you? Expecting a practical application for a religious belief is illogical.
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 442 by edge, posted 04-07-2019 11:45 AM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 498 by edge, posted 04-14-2019 9:18 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 92 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 494 of 1385 (850760)
04-14-2019 3:45 AM
Reply to: Message 443 by ringo
04-07-2019 2:25 PM


ringo writes:
That's exactly what the OP says
Sorry, but it's not "exactly what the OP says". The OP specifically asks for PRACTICAL uses for UCA. The concept of UCA is not "useless", because it's useful in evolutionary theory - however it is useless in any practical sense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 443 by ringo, posted 04-07-2019 2:25 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 502 by edge, posted 04-14-2019 11:14 AM Dredge has replied
 Message 503 by ringo, posted 04-14-2019 2:22 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 92 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 495 of 1385 (850761)
04-14-2019 3:55 AM
Reply to: Message 452 by Theodoric
04-09-2019 2:31 PM


Re: Any practical use for Universal Common Ancestor?
Theodoric writes:
As this is a forum where we discuss science, I assumed that "scientific" argument was implied.
The name of this site is "Evolution verses Creation". Are you trying to tell me the "Creation" part is strictly scientiific?
Have you ever noticed that anything where you make the claim "God did it" you have no evidence, and that the myriad of things that people used to say god did it we actually have scientific evidence for.
As an atheist you must delude yourself that there is a scientific explanation for "problematic" evidence - the Cambrian explosion, for example.
Also, before you can claim god did it you need to explain which god or actually define this entity so we know what you mean by god.
You began your message by complaining that this site is for science only and three sentences later you want to talk about God - make up your mind!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 452 by Theodoric, posted 04-09-2019 2:31 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
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Dredge
Member (Idle past 92 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 496 of 1385 (850762)
04-14-2019 3:59 AM
Reply to: Message 440 by edge
04-07-2019 10:03 AM


edge writes:
The fact that some scientists find evolutionary concepts useful in both theoretical and applied science.
And if you have 'forgotten', that just makes it easier to deny, yes?
I don't recall denying that. Please point out where I did.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 440 by edge, posted 04-07-2019 10:03 AM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 499 by edge, posted 04-14-2019 9:20 AM Dredge has replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 92 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 506 of 1385 (850826)
04-15-2019 1:47 AM
Reply to: Message 439 by RAZD
04-07-2019 8:19 AM


Re: Progressive Creation
RAZD writes:
Progressive Creation" has no predictive ability
It does, actually- PC predicts that there will be scientifically inexplicable gaps in the fossil record. This prediction is confirmed by the evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 439 by RAZD, posted 04-07-2019 8:19 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 507 by vimesey, posted 04-15-2019 3:50 AM Dredge has not replied
 Message 508 by edge, posted 04-15-2019 8:45 AM Dredge has replied
 Message 509 by ringo, posted 04-15-2019 12:03 PM Dredge has not replied
 Message 510 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-15-2019 12:31 PM Dredge has replied
 Message 511 by RAZD, posted 04-15-2019 12:36 PM Dredge has not replied
 Message 649 by RAZD, posted 05-01-2019 4:55 PM Dredge has replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 92 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 512 of 1385 (851081)
04-19-2019 2:09 AM
Reply to: Message 465 by Tangle
04-10-2019 4:05 AM


Re: Any practical use for Universal Common Ancestor?
Tangle writes:
So far your have told us that the ToE (and the concept of UCA) has no practical use
Wrong. ToE can simply refer to the mechanisms of empiricial evolution, so there are practical uses for this information.
... but even if it hadn't ut even if it hadn't it would have no effect on whether it's true or not.
A scientific theory can be "true or not"? I didn't know that.
Show me this god of yours then that intervenes routinely with the development of species on our planet. Show me how it's done - open the black box for us.
1. If you see a species from one genus evolve into a species from another genus, that is a supernatural event.
2. I can't show you "how it's done" - I have no idea how miracles happen.
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 465 by Tangle, posted 04-10-2019 4:05 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 519 by Tangle, posted 04-19-2019 5:07 AM Dredge has replied
 Message 521 by RAZD, posted 04-19-2019 7:51 AM Dredge has replied
 Message 524 by dwise1, posted 04-19-2019 12:09 PM Dredge has replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 92 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 513 of 1385 (851082)
04-19-2019 2:35 AM
Reply to: Message 466 by edge
04-10-2019 9:32 AM


Re: Another useful application of evolutionary theory
edge writes:
And yet there are a number of radiations in the fossil record. How many 'explosions' can you handle?
The Cambrian explosion is unique. You know that.
Tell that to the scientists who think the phrase is a regrettable misconception. That would be pretty much a unanimous agreement among those who actually work in related fields. Do you also believe that the sun actual rises and sets? "Cambrian Explosion" is simply a historical, descriptive precedence, used only for convenience.
If I were an atheist, I would also do everything in my power to deny the Cambrian explosion or delude myself into thinking it is a "regrettable misconception", as it powerfully contradicts the theory of biologicial evolution and powerfully supports creation. If I were an atheist, I would be afraid of the implications of the Cambrian explosion.
Kind of like the statement that evolution has no application in applied science, yes?
No. Empirical evolution has many applications in applied science.
My theory relies on the copious data that do exist.
Your evolutionary theory relies on a process that cannot be proven to exist. How do you prove that the inner-ear of a mammals evolved from the jaw-bone of a reptile? How do you prove that a double-circulation heart can evolve from a single-circulation heart? How do you prove that such evolutions are even possible? You can't - all you've got is your atheist faith in biological evolution. Please be advised that faith is not science an that your pseudo-science doesn't impress me.
Being a proponent of 'progressive creation' then, you should have no problem with the progression from Ediacaran Phyla life to Cambrian Phyla. And yet you reject that progression, insisting that Cambrian life forms just poofed into existence without precursors.
The fact you must deny is that all the novel organisms that appeared in the Cambrian explosion have no evolutionary history. In the Ediacaran, marine worms, jelly-fish and spongs existed and then, oh dear ... fish and trilobites and insects (for example) appear out of nowhere. Goodbye ToE.
What is the evolutionary link between a fish and the worms, jelly-fish and sponges of the pre-Cambrian?
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.
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Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 466 by edge, posted 04-10-2019 9:32 AM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 522 by edge, posted 04-19-2019 10:53 AM Dredge has replied
 Message 595 by caffeine, posted 04-28-2019 12:55 PM Dredge has replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 92 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 514 of 1385 (851083)
04-19-2019 3:15 AM
Reply to: Message 469 by herebedragons
04-10-2019 10:15 AM


herebedragons writes:
Dredge writes:
Douglas Futuyma ... "The theory of evolution is a body of interconnected statements about natural selection and the other processes that are thought to cause evolution"
I don't know where you quoted this sound bite from, but I have Futuyma's textbook 'Evolution' and he devotes an entire chapter to defining evolution - the chapter is called "What is Evolution?" So your quote can hardly capture what Futuyma thinks evolution is.
My quote came from,
Douglas J. Futuyma, Evolutionary Biology, 2nd ed., 1986, p.15 (Evolution is a Fact and a Theory)
I would essentially agree with Futuyma's statement but would add that these processes of evolution are sufficient to explain the diversity of life on earth.
I accept that evolution is the best scientific explanation for the diversity of life on earth ... but what a pity it's not a very good explanation. This comes as no surprise - what chance does puny science have of explaining the miracle of creation?
What is important is evolutionary history - that is, what traits have been inherited from an ancestor and what traits are derived
What is the difference between inherited traits and derived traits?
Even when studying a genus where we would all agree the members all share a common ancestor, you need a way to anchor, or root the tree. Unrooted trees do serve some purpose, but without an ancestral character state, you can't tell what traits have changed. Determining the appropriate choice of outgroup - that is, the ancestral character state, is dependent on common ancestry between groups.
As a biologist you don't need to think of common ancestors of genera. You don't need to "root the tree" beyond the genus you're studying. It's a waste of time because it's useless information.
Do you work in the biological sciences?
What is this - an appeal to authority? But I'll play along - No, I don't work in the biological sciences ... but my brother's best mate has a cousin who worked on a potato farm for a week.
Wrong. It is not my "belief." There is no evidence or even any convincing arguments that there are gaps between species that cannot be explained by the processes of evolution.
... except thousands of years of animal and plant breeding by humans - no one has managed to produce a organism that has crossed the genus boundary.
Oh, and let's forget the fossil record, with all those problematic gaps and sudden appearances.
Pick any creature... was it specially created or did it evolve from a common ancestor? How would you know?
I have no need to ask such questions (other than ones relating to common ancestry within a genus, which might prove useful).
I don't need to know how or when God created organisms or invent some "tree of life" that connects all life-forms ... and neither does a biologist.
The theory of evolution is sufficient to explain the diverstithy of life on earth.
I don't believe you ... and no one needs to explain the diversity of life on earth - certainly, no biologist needs such an explanation in order to be competent and productive.
how it fit into the tree of life?
There is no one "tree of life" - it's a atheist myth. The Cambrian explosion reveals many "trees of life" that began with no evolutionary history.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 469 by herebedragons, posted 04-10-2019 10:15 AM herebedragons has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 518 by vimesey, posted 04-19-2019 4:44 AM Dredge has replied
 Message 525 by Theodoric, posted 04-19-2019 9:56 PM Dredge has replied
 Message 599 by herebedragons, posted 04-28-2019 8:47 PM Dredge has replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 92 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 515 of 1385 (851084)
04-19-2019 3:29 AM
Reply to: Message 475 by Stile
04-10-2019 1:21 PM


Stile writes:
Because "the creation of new medicines or any practical application of medical science" is guided by accepting that all life on earth shares a common ancestor.
Nonsense.
That is, if one did not accept that all life on earth shares a common ancestor - it wouldn't make any sense to accept that all life is connected, and that life evolves from previous life. Such ideas are fundamentally connected.
More nonsense. Your logic fails - it's not necessary to accept that "all life is connected" in order to accept that "life evolves from previous life". For example, one can breed a sheep dog from a wolf without accepting that all life shares a common ancestor (or even being aware of such a concept).
I suspect you are mindlessly parroting a myth that you've been brainwashed with, and are not actually thinking about what you're saying. You've been conned.
Although they are different, they are also linked in a way where it doesn't make any sense to accept common decent and reject UCA
"In fact, over the last 100 years, almost all of biology has proceeded independent of evolution, except evolutionary biology itself. Molecular biology, biochemistry, physiology, have not taken evolution into account at all." - Dr. Marc Kirschner, founding chair of the Department of Systems Biology at Harvard Medical School (Boston Globe, 23 Oct, 2005).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 475 by Stile, posted 04-10-2019 1:21 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 555 by Stile, posted 04-22-2019 8:53 AM Dredge has replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 92 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 516 of 1385 (851085)
04-19-2019 3:43 AM
Reply to: Message 489 by RAZD
04-11-2019 10:36 AM


Re: Wrong by definition, no wonder you're confused
RAZD writes:
honorary degrees are not issued in specific fields.
They will make an exception for me - because I am exceptional. You are not exceptional - compared to me, you are a mediocrity.
Theoretical evolution is the theory of evolution (hint - theory ’ theoretical).
Try telling that to Douglas Futuyma, who says "The theory of evolution is a body of interconnected statements about natural selection and the other processes that are thought to cause evolution.
You evolutionists can't even agree on what a "theory" is!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 489 by RAZD, posted 04-11-2019 10:36 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 520 by RAZD, posted 04-19-2019 7:25 AM Dredge has not replied
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Dredge
Member (Idle past 92 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 517 of 1385 (851086)
04-19-2019 3:47 AM
Reply to: Message 499 by edge
04-14-2019 9:20 AM


Okay, then you agree that the theory of evolution is useful, yes?
Depends on what you mean by "the theory of evolution".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 499 by edge, posted 04-14-2019 9:20 AM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 523 by edge, posted 04-19-2019 10:57 AM Dredge has not replied

  
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