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Author Topic:   Any practical use for Universal Common Ancestor?
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 345 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 661 of 1385 (851810)
05-02-2019 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 660 by DrJones*
05-02-2019 4:08 PM


Re: Just to interject the YEC floodist view
Mutation will only change the genes governed by the genome for a particular species, it's not going to change the function of those genes in order to produce something different from what the genome does. And natural selection happens all the time to favor new variations that are also built into the species genome. You'll never get anything but a variation on the species genome. Just blurting out "mutations plus natural selection" is the usual silly noninformation evos pass off as science though there is no way it could bring about something outside the species genome and they don't even try to figure out how it could happen, you just believe it must because, well, it must.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 660 by DrJones*, posted 05-02-2019 4:08 PM DrJones* has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 662 by DrJones*, posted 05-02-2019 4:13 PM Faith has responded
 Message 665 by PaulK, posted 05-02-2019 4:25 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 668 by herebedragons, posted 05-02-2019 5:20 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 669 by AZPaul3, posted 05-02-2019 6:07 PM Faith has responded

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2177
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 662 of 1385 (851811)
05-02-2019 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 661 by Faith
05-02-2019 4:12 PM


Re: Just to interject the YEC floodist view
it's not going to change the function of those genes in order to produce something different

prove it

the usual silly noninformation you pass off as science.

pot. kettle.

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 661 by Faith, posted 05-02-2019 4:12 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 345 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 663 of 1385 (851812)
05-02-2019 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 662 by DrJones*
05-02-2019 4:13 PM


Re: Just to interject the YEC floodist view
Thinking should be sufficient, if you are capable of it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 662 by DrJones*, posted 05-02-2019 4:13 PM DrJones* has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 16861
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 4.0


(1)
Message 664 of 1385 (851813)
05-02-2019 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 659 by Faith
05-02-2019 3:34 PM


Re: Just to interject the YEC floodist view
quote:

But the main evidence of the Flood is the sedimentary strata found all over the planet and their fossil contents.

Funny how the “best” evidence for the Flood is evidence against it.

quote:

The idea that such layers of completely different sediments usually demarcated by sharp straight lines between them, would just happen to occur hundreds of millions of years apart so regularly up the geological column is laughably absurd.

And as we know there are plenty that are not flat and not straight. And it isn’t that odd that flat surfaces existed in the past. On the other hand massive halite deposits, sequences indicating gradual transgression and regression of the sea, volcanic eruptions occurring above water and so on rather kill the idea that the strata are due to the Flood.

quote:

And bazillions of fossilized dead things in them perfectly reflects the purpose of the Flood, to kill all the land creatures not saved on the ark.

A rather odd claim to make when most of the fossils found are sea life. And more odd when we find fossils of creatures that died in arid conditions.

quote:

*How* it could have happened is another subject,

Obviously it couldn’t.

quote:

...since nobody here has been able to answer my repeated question about how one species could genetically descend from another either, I think we can leave such questions for later.

There are two important differences. The first is that we have very serious objections to the idea that a Flood could account for the geological and fossil record, while you have no similarly strong objections to the idea of distinct species having a common ancestor.

The second difference is that you are trying to use the problematic features as the main evidence for your view. If you can’t actually explain them, then they aren’t good evidence at all.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 659 by Faith, posted 05-02-2019 3:34 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16861
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 665 of 1385 (851814)
05-02-2019 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 661 by Faith
05-02-2019 4:12 PM


Re: Just to interject the YEC floodist view
quote:

Mutation will only change the genes governed by the genome for a particular species, it's not going to change the function of those genes in order to produce something different from what the genome does

Changing the genome will rather obviously change what it does.

quote:

And natural selection happens all the time to favor new variations that are also built into the species genome.

And sometimes to favour completely new variations.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 661 by Faith, posted 05-02-2019 4:12 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2499
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 6.9


Message 666 of 1385 (851815)
05-02-2019 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 659 by Faith
05-02-2019 3:34 PM


Re: Just to interject the YEC floodist view
Faith writes:

Amazing how well you understand what a worldwide Flood would do, just staggering considering that we have no witness information from that time.

Of course we have witness information from that time. Dozens of cultures existed around the world at that time and not one single one of them shows any signs of being wiped out by a global flood.

And despite your lack of knowledge we know exactly what the evidence that floods leave behind looks like and it isn't anything like we see where the strata are exposed. You can pretend no one could possibly know what a global flood is like but that is just your made up bullshit.

Faith writes:

I'll believe Noah though that he and his family and all the animals of earth were saved on a big boat that took him a hundred years to build.

You can believe whatever you want, but Noah is just as fictional as Santa Claus.

Faith writes:

Time suspended? Huh? And all the rest of it.

The geological formations everywhere on this planet are evidence of deposition and erosion over billions of years, not a year long flood.

Your fantasy flood can only be true if time is suspended, and gravity is suspended, and hydrology is suspended, and sedimentology is suspended, and thermodynamics is suspended, and chemistry is suspended, and biology is suspended, and geology is suspended, and all of physics is suspended.

Sorry, God authored the report of the Flood and He has a bit more credibility than you.

Fiction.

Faith writes:

But the main evidence of the Flood is the sedimentary strata found all over the planet and their fossil contents.

No it is not. A flood does not leave distinct layers of unrelated material like we see everywhere that strata is exposed.

You have no explanation for the order in the fossil record that is consistent with the principles of physics, chemistry, geology, biology and all other relevant science.

Faith writes:

The idea that such layers of completely different sediments usually demarcated by sharp straight lines between them, would just happen to occur hundreds of millions of years apart so regularly up the geological column is laughably absurd.

You never actually have an evidence based reason that it is absurd, except for your total lack of any knowledge about geology. The evidence is ALL against you.

Faith writes:

And bazillions of fossilized dead things in them perfectly reflects the purpose of the Flood, to kill all the land creatures not saved on the ark.

As mentioned earlier, the order of the fossils supports the fact that your fantasy flood is fiction.

The vast majority of animal fossils are from aquatic creatures, not land animals.

Faith writes:

This evidene is really quite apparent if you just open your eyes.

This conclusion could only be reached by someone who has never studied geology in the field.

Faith writes:

"How" it could have happened is another subject, and since nobody here has been able to answer my repeated question about how one species could genetically descend from another either, I think we can leave such questions for later.

This is bullshit and you know it. It is right there in Message 658

quote:
Faith writes:

AND that nobody has offered a pathway for getting genetic changes from one species genome to that of another species although I've asked and asked.

What the heck are you talking about? Genomes are passed on from ancestors to descendants through reproduction with new mutations slightly modifying the genome every generation. Sometimes lines of descent go extinct and sometimes they are the beginning of dense lines of descent.


ABE: since you edited you post after I finished mine:

Faith writes:

Oh, and the Flood would have provided the conditions for fossilization that just couldn't occur on the usual scenario spanning those hundreds of millions of years. Really you all need to wake up.

This is pure bullshit that you just made up and do not support with even a shred of evidence or rational thought. You are the one living in a dream world.

Edited by Tanypteryx, : No reason given.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 659 by Faith, posted 05-02-2019 3:34 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5838
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.3


(1)
Message 667 of 1385 (851816)
05-02-2019 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 659 by Faith
05-02-2019 3:34 PM


Re: Just to interject the YEC floodist view
nobody here has been able to answer my repeated question about how one species could genetically descend from another

Then you haven't been paying attention since you have been provided this answer in multiple messages over the years.

Mutations mapped to natural selection over millions of years. Micro-evolution times thousands of generations.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
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herebedragons
Member (Idle past 633 days)
Posts: 1513
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 668 of 1385 (851818)
05-02-2019 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 661 by Faith
05-02-2019 4:12 PM


Re: Just to interject the YEC floodist view
Mutation will only change the genes governed by the genome for a particular species, it's not going to change the function of those genes in order to produce something different from what the genome does.

I think the problem is you don't really understand what the genome does. Your view is way too over-simplistic for you to make sense of what happens when genes change.

variations that are also built into the species genome.

I asked this question a while ago and you never responded, so I'll ask again.

If the way that new varieties or subspecies (or whatever you want to call them) occur is through the recombination of existing alleles, what would you expect genetic diversity to be like in clonal organisms? I would think that since they don't undergo recombination and they don't shuffle around existing alleles, they should have very little diversity between subspecies. Is that what you predict as well?

I came across a paper as part of a project I recently worked on and I will start a new thread on it once you give me an answer about what you expect genetic diversity to be like in clonal organisms according to your understanding of genetics.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5838
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.3


(2)
Message 669 of 1385 (851819)
05-02-2019 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 661 by Faith
05-02-2019 4:12 PM


Re: Just to interject the YEC floodist view
Mutation will only change the genes governed by the genome for a particular species, it's not going to change the function of those genes in order to produce something different from what the genome does.

Error 1: Genes are not governed by the genome. Genes change and enter/leave the population's genome based on usage and fecundity.

Error 2: The genome does what the genes that make it up produce. When a large proportion of the genes change the genome is different. The genome is not a static set of alleles but a constant flow of alleles into and out of the population.

And natural selection happens all the time to favor new variations that are also built into the species genome.

Error 3: New alleles are not built into the genome. Novel combinations of nucleobases alter existing alleles and produce new alleles thus producing new novel proteins. There is no limiting factor that could keep a species genome from the chemical alterations/production of novel alleles. From there the only limiting factor to the use/demise of novel alleles is what those novel alleles do to the fecundity of the resultant phenotype.

You already acknowledge micro-evolutionary change. Slightly longer/shorter sharper/duller teeth, slightly longer/shorter stronger/weaker arms/legs. The same variation exists for every trait you care to mention.When populations split along geographic lines or into new habitats these variations are exacerbated by the environment leading over many thousands of generations to an organism so drastically different from its ancestors as to be called a different species.

Further, as that new population differentiates, splits, and differentiates still more over millions of years, the resultant phenotypes are so different from the original population that we classify these as a new genus. And the process continues without the limits you impose (and cannot show to exist).

From a Triassic rodent differentiating, splitting and differentiating more we get dogs, cats, moose, bear and whales after 200 million years. And that's just mammals. The same for all the other life systems from insect to reptilians ... and this on steroids for bacterium.

You have been told how it all works. You no longer have recourse to say your question has not been answered.

You disagree with the answer, of course, but that is based on your religious motivation not any demonstrable facts.

There are no limits over time to changes in alleles, genes, genomes. Micro-evolution operating in disparate environments times millions of generations produces everything.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 661 by Faith, posted 05-02-2019 4:12 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 688 by Faith, posted 05-03-2019 1:16 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 670 of 1385 (851820)
05-02-2019 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 659 by Faith
05-02-2019 3:34 PM


Re: Just to interject the YEC floodist view
We know a lot about what a world-wide flood would do. Water was water, rock was rock, gravity was gravity.

One thing no flood does is consistently sort fragile objects into an order that has nothing to do with their physical properties.

If you insist we can't assess the flood based on our wide-ranging knowledge of water and rock and gravity, you've explicitly rejected scientific inquiry. Take it to a faith forum.


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JonF
Member
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 671 of 1385 (851821)
05-02-2019 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 663 by Faith
05-02-2019 4:15 PM


Re: Just to interject the YEC floodist view
Thinking is never enough. Evidence is required.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 663 by Faith, posted 05-02-2019 4:15 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 4612
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.4


(2)
Message 672 of 1385 (851824)
05-02-2019 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 663 by Faith
05-02-2019 4:15 PM


Re: Just to interject the YEC floodist view
Thinking should be sufficient, if you are capable of it.

quote:

The Physicist and the Metaphysicist

In the 1920s, there was a dinner at which the physicist Robert W. Wood was asked to respond to a toast. This was a time when people stood up, made a toast, and then selected someone to respond. Nobody knew what toast they'd be asked to reply to, so it was a challenge for the quick-witted. In this case the toast was: "To physics and metaphysics." Now by metaphysics was meant something like philosophy -- truths that you could get to just by thinking about them. Wood took a second, glanced about him, and answered along these lines: The physicist has an idea, he said. The more he thinks it through, the more sense it makes to him. He goes to the scientific literature, and the more he reads, the more promising the idea seems. Thus prepared, he devises an experiment to test the idea. The experiment is painstaking. Many possibilities are eliminated or taken into account; the accuracy of the measurement is refined. At the end of all this work, the experiment is completed and ... the idea is shown to be worthless. The physicist then discards the idea, frees his mind (as I was saying a moment ago) from the clutter of error, and moves on to something else.

The difference between physics and metaphysics, Wood concluded, is that the metaphysicist has no laboratory.

(reportedly from an essay by Carl Sagan)


Testing of your ideas is required, if you are capable of it.


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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5838
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 673 of 1385 (851829)
05-02-2019 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 625 by caffeine
05-01-2019 5:45 AM


Re: Progressive Creation
There are still no Cambrian fish.

So, you're telling me that a change in bait won't help?


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 625 by caffeine, posted 05-01-2019 5:45 AM caffeine has acknowledged this reply

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 1295
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 674 of 1385 (851832)
05-03-2019 3:17 AM
Reply to: Message 617 by edge
05-01-2019 1:32 AM


Re: Progressive Creation
Stile writes:

Who says the fossil record must be “complete”?


Beats me. We will never know when the fossil record is complete.

The point is that we have an explanation and you do not.

I’m glad you mentioned this, as I have recently adopted a scientific explanation for the fossil record (which I will preface by saying, science cannot explain the fossil record and I don’t believe in aliens): The history of life on earth is the result of genetic engineering performed by aliens. This explanation seems to me to be at least as scientifically valid as Darwinian evolution, but one that makes a lot more sense. (Science cannot rule out the existence of intelligent aliens who could perform such feats of creative daring-do.)

Please document the fossils you are talking about.

I can’t document fossils that don’t exist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 617 by edge, posted 05-01-2019 1:32 AM edge has responded

Replies to this message:
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Dredge
Member
Posts: 1295
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 675 of 1385 (851833)
05-03-2019 3:19 AM
Reply to: Message 618 by edge
05-01-2019 1:38 AM


Re: Progressive Creation
edge writes:

What 'barnacles, worms and sponges' of the Precambrian are you talking about? Please document. You keep spouting this stuff like you know something about them.


Just google “Ediacaran life-forms” … any mug can do it. Btw, there will be a question on this subject in the final exam – you have been warned.

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 Message 618 by edge, posted 05-01-2019 1:38 AM edge has responded

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