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Author Topic:   Any practical use for Universal Common Ancestor?
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


(2)
Message 571 of 1385 (851423)
04-24-2019 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 560 by Dredge
04-24-2019 1:49 AM


Re: Progressive Creation
Dredge writes:
Tanypteryx writes:
What specific evidence confirms that any gaps in the fossil record are scientifically inexplicable?
Exhibit A: Most (if not all) of the novel organisms that appear during the Cambrian explosion have no fossil ancestors. Sorry to deliver the depressing news.
So, you've got nothing, that's what I figured. You are stuck in 1859. Most fossils have been discovered since then.
Fiction never depresses me.
I note you didn't answer any of my questions from Message 510.
Dredge writes:
RAZD writes:
Progressive Creation" has no predictive ability
It does, actually- PC predicts that there will be scientifically inexplicable gaps in the fossil record. This prediction is confirmed by the evidence.
So, what is your definition of your theory of "Progressive Creation?"
Is there a formal theory that is published somewhere or are you just making it up as you go along?
Is there a scientific publication that lays out all the particulars of the "theory" or are you the only adherent?
How does PC determine that any gaps in the fossil record are inexplicable by science?
Dredge writes:
This prediction is confirmed by the evidence.
What specific evidence confirms that any gaps in the fossil record are scientifically inexplicable?
Is your prediction that gaps in the fossil record can never be scientifically explained? If so, how specifically could you confirm that prediction?

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 560 by Dredge, posted 04-24-2019 1:49 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 616 by Dredge, posted 05-01-2019 1:17 AM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


(3)
Message 573 of 1385 (851427)
04-24-2019 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 556 by Dredge
04-24-2019 1:27 AM


Re: Another useful application of evolutionary theory
Dredge writes:
Tangle writes:
Well now we have it. H. sapiens did not evolve, he was placed here whole by a (Christian) God. Great, now show your workings.
Too easy! The genealogies from the first humans are recorded in the Bible (an historical document) - from which it can be calculated that man was created less than 10,000 years ago.
So, Santa Claus fiction is your evidence. Your credibility just keeps dropping.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 556 by Dredge, posted 04-24-2019 1:27 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 608 of 1385 (851662)
04-30-2019 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 606 by Phat
04-30-2019 11:23 AM


Now its Tanypteryx turn.
My turn for what?

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 606 by Phat, posted 04-30-2019 11:23 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


(1)
Message 609 of 1385 (851663)
04-30-2019 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 575 by Dredge
04-28-2019 1:42 AM


=DrudgeOh, so you think I should place my trust in evolutionary scientists? That's HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA so funny!
What are you, 12?

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 575 by Dredge, posted 04-28-2019 1:42 AM Dredge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 610 by Stile, posted 04-30-2019 12:23 PM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


(3)
Message 629 of 1385 (851723)
05-01-2019 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 616 by Dredge
05-01-2019 1:17 AM


Re: Progressive Creation
Dredge writes:
Tanypteryx writes:
So, you've got nothing, that's what I figured. You are stuck in 1859. Most fossils have been discovered since then.
Where are the fossils that demonstrate the evolutionary links between the sponges, worms and barnacles of the pre-Cambrian and the fish of the Cambrian? What are the evolutionary ancestors of insects?
What sponges, worms and barnacles of the pre-Cambrian? Described fossils have names so be specific. There are no fish in the Cambrian. Judging from what you write, you really are ignorant of this subject. Maybe you should stick with fictional characters like Adam and Eve.
Dredge writes:
What are the evolutionary ancestors of insects?
Earlier Arthropods, obviously.
Dredge writes:
Tanypteryx writes:
I note you didn't answer any of my questions from Message 510.
Your questions are unscientific in nature and not relevant to the thread.
They seem pretty scientific to me. Your credibility is well into the negative when you post this sort of thing in a science thread.
Dredge in message 612 writes:
Of course Adam and Eve were real!
I believe Noah's flood is an historical fact, but I also believe it wasn't global.
Did all humanity descended from Noah's family? I think so.
No modern animals evolved in last 4000 years - all animals were created, beginning billions of years ago.
Here are my questions from Message 510 again.
Dredge writes:
RAZD writes:
Progressive Creation" has no predictive ability
It does, actually- PC predicts that there will be scientifically inexplicable gaps in the fossil record. This prediction is confirmed by the evidence.
So, what is your definition of your theory of "Progressive Creation?"
Is there a formal theory that is published somewhere or are you just making it up as you go along?
Is there a scientific publication that lays out all the particulars of the "theory" or are you the only adherent?
How does PC determine that any gaps in the fossil record are inexplicable by science?
Dredge writes:
This prediction is confirmed by the evidence.
What specific evidence confirms that any gaps in the fossil record are scientifically inexplicable?
Is your prediction that gaps in the fossil record can never be scientifically explained? If so, how specifically could you confirm that prediction?
Credible or a troll?

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 616 by Dredge, posted 05-01-2019 1:17 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 632 by Phat, posted 05-01-2019 12:43 PM Tanypteryx has replied
 Message 784 by Dredge, posted 05-06-2019 5:48 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


(2)
Message 630 of 1385 (851724)
05-01-2019 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 619 by Dredge
05-01-2019 1:39 AM


Re: Another useful application of evolutionary theory
Dredge writes:
Please be advised that, by any standard, the Bible qualifies an authentic, historical document.
It is fiction. Only by the standard of delusional believers is it anything but fiction.
Dredge writes:
I'm sure your homophobic language does not please the Great False god of Equality that you atheists invented.
You don't know anything about atheists either. Your credibility is in the shitter when you try to use the bible in a scientific discussion.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 619 by Dredge, posted 05-01-2019 1:39 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


(1)
Message 633 of 1385 (851728)
05-01-2019 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 632 by Phat
05-01-2019 12:43 PM


Re: Progressive Creation
Now, why would an omnipotent Being need to do a silly thing like that?
Indeed.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 632 by Phat, posted 05-01-2019 12:43 PM Phat has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 639 of 1385 (851747)
05-01-2019 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 636 by FLRW
05-01-2019 2:02 PM


Re: Progressive Creation
Just to be clear, the flatworms you guys are talking about Genus Planaria, Phylum Platyhelminthes, correct?

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 636 by FLRW, posted 05-01-2019 2:02 PM FLRW has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 643 by caffeine, posted 05-01-2019 3:35 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 642 of 1385 (851754)
05-01-2019 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 638 by Faith
05-01-2019 2:36 PM


Re: Just to interject the YEC floodist view
Faith writes:
In any case it is irrelevant to the Floodist position although I agree that it would be nice to get the order correct.
What would be a lot nicer is an explanation of the fossil order that is consistent with the principles of physics, chemistry, geology, biology and all other relevant science.
Our observations and theories provide a coherent explanation for the fossil order and, in fact, for the whole fossil record and our knowledge base is being improved continuously.
The stuff you have told us you believe about your fantasy flood can only be true if time is suspended, and gravity is suspended, and hydrology is suspended, and sedimentology is suspended, and thermodynamics is suspended, and chemistry is suspended, and biology is suspended, and geology is suspended, and all of physics is suspended.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 638 by Faith, posted 05-01-2019 2:36 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 645 by Faith, posted 05-01-2019 4:22 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 644 of 1385 (851758)
05-01-2019 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 643 by caffeine
05-01-2019 3:35 PM


Re: Progressive Creation
There are loads of genera of Platyhelminthes, not just Planaria.
Yep, I realized that as I read a bit more. Thanks for the info.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 643 by caffeine, posted 05-01-2019 3:35 PM caffeine has seen this message but not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


(3)
Message 658 of 1385 (851777)
05-01-2019 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 645 by Faith
05-01-2019 4:22 PM


Re: Just to interject the YEC floodist view
Faith writes:
Yes an explanation of the fossil order would be nice but the evidence for the Flood is compelling without it.
No it is not. Your fantasy flood can only be true if time is suspended, and gravity is suspended, and hydrology is suspended, and sedimentology is suspended, and thermodynamics is suspended, and chemistry is suspended, and biology is suspended, and geology is suspended, and all of physics is suspended.
Faith writes:
Also, I don't think the fossil order itself is all that compelling anyway,
Well of course you don't, because you cannot explain or understand it so you have to pretend it doesn't exit. We've watched you do this every single time.
Faith writes:
it's more of an illusion than a reality.
Really? Please point out the specific illusion.
The reality is that your whole flood scenario is a delusion.
Faith writes:
There is not really anything objective that defines why one living form should precede the others over millions of years, it's all imaginative.
What? Are you seriously disputing that ancestors live before their descendants?
Faith writes:
AND the idea of millions of years belies the fact that variation in one species is quite extensive over merely a few hundred years in reality.
In what way does the amount of variation in one species refute the fact that life has existed for several BILLIONS of years.
We know that the rates at which genetic variation fluctuates within natural populations is highly variable, so whatever point you are trying to make here fails.
Faith writes:
AND that nobody has offered a pathway for getting genetic changes from one species genome to that of another species although I've asked and asked.
What the heck are you talking about? Genomes are passed on from ancestors to descendants through reproduction with new mutations slightly modifying the genome every generation. Sometimes lines of descent go extinct and sometimes they are the beginning of dense lines of descent.
Faith writes:
These questions are far more important than the supposedly fossil order.
Really? How do the answers in any way support you fantasy flood?
The thing is we can explain the fossil order in a way that is consistent with the principles of physics, chemistry, geology, biology and all other relevant science and you cannot.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 645 by Faith, posted 05-01-2019 4:22 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 659 by Faith, posted 05-02-2019 3:34 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 666 of 1385 (851815)
05-02-2019 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 659 by Faith
05-02-2019 3:34 PM


Re: Just to interject the YEC floodist view
Faith writes:
Amazing how well you understand what a worldwide Flood would do, just staggering considering that we have no witness information from that time.
Of course we have witness information from that time. Dozens of cultures existed around the world at that time and not one single one of them shows any signs of being wiped out by a global flood.
And despite your lack of knowledge we know exactly what the evidence that floods leave behind looks like and it isn't anything like we see where the strata are exposed. You can pretend no one could possibly know what a global flood is like but that is just your made up bullshit.
Faith writes:
I'll believe Noah though that he and his family and all the animals of earth were saved on a big boat that took him a hundred years to build.
You can believe whatever you want, but Noah is just as fictional as Santa Claus.
Faith writes:
Time suspended? Huh? And all the rest of it.
The geological formations everywhere on this planet are evidence of deposition and erosion over billions of years, not a year long flood.
Your fantasy flood can only be true if time is suspended, and gravity is suspended, and hydrology is suspended, and sedimentology is suspended, and thermodynamics is suspended, and chemistry is suspended, and biology is suspended, and geology is suspended, and all of physics is suspended.
Sorry, God authored the report of the Flood and He has a bit more credibility than you.
Fiction.
Faith writes:
But the main evidence of the Flood is the sedimentary strata found all over the planet and their fossil contents.
No it is not. A flood does not leave distinct layers of unrelated material like we see everywhere that strata is exposed.
You have no explanation for the order in the fossil record that is consistent with the principles of physics, chemistry, geology, biology and all other relevant science.
Faith writes:
The idea that such layers of completely different sediments usually demarcated by sharp straight lines between them, would just happen to occur hundreds of millions of years apart so regularly up the geological column is laughably absurd.
You never actually have an evidence based reason that it is absurd, except for your total lack of any knowledge about geology. The evidence is ALL against you.
Faith writes:
And bazillions of fossilized dead things in them perfectly reflects the purpose of the Flood, to kill all the land creatures not saved on the ark.
As mentioned earlier, the order of the fossils supports the fact that your fantasy flood is fiction.
The vast majority of animal fossils are from aquatic creatures, not land animals.
Faith writes:
This evidene is really quite apparent if you just open your eyes.
This conclusion could only be reached by someone who has never studied geology in the field.
Faith writes:
"How" it could have happened is another subject, and since nobody here has been able to answer my repeated question about how one species could genetically descend from another either, I think we can leave such questions for later.
This is bullshit and you know it. It is right there in Message 658
quote:
Faith writes:
AND that nobody has offered a pathway for getting genetic changes from one species genome to that of another species although I've asked and asked.
What the heck are you talking about? Genomes are passed on from ancestors to descendants through reproduction with new mutations slightly modifying the genome every generation. Sometimes lines of descent go extinct and sometimes they are the beginning of dense lines of descent.
ABE: since you edited you post after I finished mine:
Faith writes:
Oh, and the Flood would have provided the conditions for fossilization that just couldn't occur on the usual scenario spanning those hundreds of millions of years. Really you all need to wake up.
This is pure bullshit that you just made up and do not support with even a shred of evidence or rational thought. You are the one living in a dream world.
Edited by Tanypteryx, : No reason given.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 659 by Faith, posted 05-02-2019 3:34 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 725 of 1385 (851971)
05-05-2019 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 723 by Faith
05-05-2019 2:04 PM


Re: Restating the question
Faith writes:
Anything to confuse the issue.
You seem to be the only one confused about the explanations.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 723 by Faith, posted 05-05-2019 2:04 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 790 of 1385 (852081)
05-06-2019 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 784 by Dredge
05-06-2019 5:48 PM


Re: Progressive Creation
Dredge writes:
Tanypteryx writes:
Dredge writes:
What are the evolutionary ancestors of insects?
Earlier Arthropods, obviously.
Really? According to Gunter Bechly, there is no evidence whatsoever of evolutionary ancestors of insects.
Who should I believe - you or a world-renowned paleontologist who has three insects named after him?
Well, I already know that you believe a lot of bullshit and your beliefs have no impact on reality.
Bechly has done some interesting work, but he ignores evidence. George Bush has a dung beetle named after him because he's an idiot, so having species named after you says nothing about the depth of your knowledge on a subject.
I also note that Bechly never includes his ID beliefs in his scientific papers on dragonfly fossils.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 784 by Dredge, posted 05-06-2019 5:48 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 877 by Dredge, posted 05-08-2019 7:01 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 795 of 1385 (852089)
05-06-2019 9:12 PM
Reply to: Message 774 by Dredge
05-06-2019 5:25 PM


Re: Another useful application of evolutionary theory
Anyways, none of that weakens my argument
Actually, that is correct, because your argument couldn't get any weaker.
dredge writes:
There is no fossil record of evolutionary ancestors for the many novel phyla that appeared during and after the Cambrian explosion.
That's pretty vague. You need to provide a list of those phyla.
I realize you are unaware but those are just species that have been identified from Cambrian deposits.
Dredge writes:
For example, trilobites, fish and insects seemingly appeared out of nowhere.
First, trilobites, fish, and insects are not phyla classifications.
Second, fish and insect fossils have never been identified in any of the Cambrian fauna. You have been told this many times, yet you keep repeating it, which seems silly.
Dredge writes:
The best scientific argument for this evidence is genetic engineering performed by aliens
So, the lack of any evidence of aliens is evidence of aliens, looks like really sound science to me, 'cause you used science in the sentence and all.
Dredge writes:
(and not Darwinian evolution, which is little more than a glorified version of the nineteenth-century superstition of spontaneous generation).
Right, says a guy who believes aliens in a fictional book called the bible put people on the Earth 6000 years ago.
At least you're funny.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 774 by Dredge, posted 05-06-2019 5:25 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 912 by Dredge, posted 05-09-2019 7:20 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
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