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Author Topic:   Any practical use for Universal Common Ancestor?
JonF
Member (Idle past 189 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


(2)
Message 591 of 1385 (851550)
04-28-2019 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 582 by Dredge
04-28-2019 2:27 AM


Re: Wrong by definition, no wonder you're confused
When you have to declare you've won the debate in a pathetic attempt to duck issues...
You haven't won.

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JonF
Member (Idle past 189 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 637 of 1385 (851738)
05-01-2019 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 635 by Faith
05-01-2019 2:00 PM


Re: Just to interject the YEC floodist view
Which doesn't alter which fossils are in which rocks, which you consistently get wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 635 by Faith, posted 05-01-2019 2:00 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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JonF
Member (Idle past 189 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


(1)
Message 648 of 1385 (851762)
05-01-2019 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 645 by Faith
05-01-2019 4:22 PM


Re: Just to interject the YEC floodist view
An explanation for the obvious fossil order and undeniable correlation with depth and rock formations is requisite for any theory. Any "theory" that doesn't have one is a non-starter.
Only one of the many fatal flaws that we post and you ignore.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 645 by Faith, posted 05-01-2019 4:22 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 650 by Faith, posted 05-01-2019 5:03 PM JonF has replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 189 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


(3)
Message 656 of 1385 (851771)
05-01-2019 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 650 by Faith
05-01-2019 5:03 PM


Re: Just to interject the YEC floodist view
You gave no explanation. An explanation must include describing the forces and environmental factors that affect the fossils and how they act to produce the observed pattern. The order of the fossil record is a critical requirement for any theory precisely because nobody has found any near-plausible explanation other than time, lots of it, plus change over time. Something so obvious for which there's only one known explanation (despite many attempts at others) is strong evidence for the theory that has the explanation.
YECs have come up with sciency-sounding labels for their attempts at explaining. Ecological zonation, hydrodynamic sorting, differential escape. Each of them or any combination of them has been trivially refuted as a possible explanation. Most of those refutations have been posted in your threads. We see the result.

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JonF
Member (Idle past 189 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 670 of 1385 (851820)
05-02-2019 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 659 by Faith
05-02-2019 3:34 PM


Re: Just to interject the YEC floodist view
We know a lot about what a world-wide flood would do. Water was water, rock was rock, gravity was gravity.
One thing no flood does is consistently sort fragile objects into an order that has nothing to do with their physical properties.
If you insist we can't assess the flood based on our wide-ranging knowledge of water and rock and gravity, you've explicitly rejected scientific inquiry. Take it to a faith forum.

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JonF
Member (Idle past 189 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 671 of 1385 (851821)
05-02-2019 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 663 by Faith
05-02-2019 4:15 PM


Re: Just to interject the YEC floodist view
Thinking is never enough. Evidence is required.

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JonF
Member (Idle past 189 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 715 of 1385 (851944)
05-04-2019 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 708 by Faith
05-04-2019 10:42 AM


Re: Restating the question
Your extrapolation of what we see over 100 years or so to millenia is not justified.
A genome is not a blueprint.
Edited by JonF, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 708 by Faith, posted 05-04-2019 10:42 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 723 by Faith, posted 05-05-2019 2:04 PM JonF has replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 189 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 724 of 1385 (851968)
05-05-2019 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 723 by Faith
05-05-2019 2:04 PM


Re: Restating the question
You understand the question. Answer it for whatever time frame you think appropriate. What has to change in whatever time frame you think appropriate? What has to happen to the genome to cause the change? Etc.
Same answer as the last hundred times.
Mutations.
Your misunderstandings notwithstanding.
But any will do as a metaphor to express the relationship between gene and protein and trait.
There is no one word, since there are multiple processes operating. Especially since the relationship between proteins and traits is not coded into the genome.
PZ Myers wrote :
quote:
Analogies have a troubling effect on developmental biology because the fundamental processes are so different from what we experience in day-to-day life that they are always flawed and misleading. My main message is going to be that while they may help us grasp what's going on, we have to also recognize where the analogies fail (like, everywhere!) and be mentally prepared to leap elsewhere.

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JonF
Member (Idle past 189 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 733 of 1385 (851979)
05-05-2019 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 729 by Faith
05-05-2019 3:05 PM


Re: Restating the question
There will never be a step by step explanation, the data isn't available. But we have enough data by far to conclude the outline of the process.
Of course you can provide a step by step explanation of your scenario. Looking forward to it.

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JonF
Member (Idle past 189 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 734 of 1385 (851981)
05-05-2019 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 731 by Faith
05-05-2019 3:50 PM


Re: Restating the question
I've many times identified barriers to change beyond the species, both in the genome and in population genetics.
Repeating unsupported assertions over and over is not identifying barriers. Claiming some process exists or does not exist based only on your imagination is not identifying barriers.
You need evidence. Measurements and observations of what happens in the real world. Especially the fossil record.

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JonF
Member (Idle past 189 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


(1)
Message 736 of 1385 (851983)
05-05-2019 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 731 by Faith
05-05-2019 3:50 PM


Re: Restating the question
It's amusing how nobody can do that and just keep trying to throw it back on me.
Demanding a step by step explanation is hypocritical. You know none is available for our or your scenario.
Science works with the evidence we have, not the evidence you think we should have

This message is a reply to:
 Message 731 by Faith, posted 05-05-2019 3:50 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 737 by Faith, posted 05-05-2019 6:48 PM JonF has replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 189 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 742 of 1385 (852010)
05-06-2019 9:00 AM
Reply to: Message 737 by Faith
05-05-2019 6:48 PM


Re: Restating the question
We know almost all about the changes that were necessary. We don't know in what order they occurred.
Still waiting for the step by step narrative of your scenario.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 737 by Faith, posted 05-05-2019 6:48 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 743 by Faith, posted 05-06-2019 9:35 AM JonF has replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 189 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 755 of 1385 (852037)
05-06-2019 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 743 by Faith
05-06-2019 9:35 AM


Re: Restating the question
If you insist. See SupplementaryTable S19 from Initial sequence of the chimpanzee genome and comparison with the human genome. You will need Excel or the free Google Sheets or equivalent, and you have a lot of studying ahead of you before you understand it. But that is the format the data is in.
Harping on similar data for your scenario is a way of pointing out your stunn hypocrisy in requiring something from us but not from you.

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JonF
Member (Idle past 189 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 765 of 1385 (852053)
05-06-2019 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 762 by Faith
05-06-2019 4:42 PM


Re: Restating the question
Re: Restating the question
I have to come back to this later but please answer this question: Isn't it true that the human genome will create only a human being with human characteristics...
Yes.
and there is nothing in it that could produce anything else or even a single characteristic of another species?
There's lots of things in it that are identical between humans and chimps. By far most of it. Those elements of the chimp genome are used for the same purposes as their counterparts in the human genome. So I have to say almost all of the human genome could produce anything else or even a single characteristic of another species.
As noted above we have a lot to learn about how hands develop. But we can say most of the genes that produce a human hand are identical to the genes that produce a chimpanzee hand.

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JonF
Member (Idle past 189 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 776 of 1385 (852066)
05-06-2019 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 772 by Faith
05-06-2019 5:21 PM


Re: Restating the question
All the differences between the human and chimp genome can be ascribed to mutations. Mutation is defined as a change in the genome. If we tabulated every difference between the two genomes we could produce a chimp by making those changes in a human genome and vice versa.Those changes would be mutations..
We haven't actually done this, it's beyond our current capabilities, and there's ethics issues. But the process would produce a genome identical to a chimp. It would produce a chimp.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 772 by Faith, posted 05-06-2019 5:21 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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