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Author Topic:   Any practical use for Universal Common Ancestor?
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 766 of 1385 (852055)
05-06-2019 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 592 by edge
04-28-2019 10:31 AM


Re: Another useful application of evolutionary theory
The problem you have is that this evolutionary event is supported by evidence.
Yeah, right - your "evidence" is a few fossils with a gigantic gap between reptiles and mammals. That's it.
You have no the slightest idea what so sort of environmental pressures would cause the jaw-bones of a reptile to evolve into the inner-ear bones of a mammal, nor can you begin to explain how the supposed mutations evolved in this process would confer survival advantages.
As usual, the massive holes in your tissue-thin "theory" are filled with huge doses of wishful thinking and blind faith in evolution.
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 592 by edge, posted 04-28-2019 10:31 AM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 768 by Taq, posted 05-06-2019 5:09 PM Dredge has replied
 Message 773 by edge, posted 05-06-2019 5:22 PM Dredge has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 767 of 1385 (852056)
05-06-2019 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 698 by Faith
05-04-2019 12:07 AM


Re: Just to interject the YEC floodist view
Faith writes:
You have the ToE perspective that sees one evolving from the other but since I don't look at it that way I see two different creatures each with its own genome hardwired to its own characteristics since Creation.
According to your own view, humans and chimps are physically different because of the differences between their genomes, correct?
If so, then mutations are capable of producing different species because mutations produce differences between genomes.
The sense in which mutations make a genome worse is that they interrupt functioning alleles which in most cases has a neutral affect and doesn't change the product, but in some cases may kill a gene or produce a disease.
If this were the case then a Creator could not produce different species because any change to a genome would interrupt functioning alleles.
There is no mechanism for mutations to alter the genome to produce anything else than those characteristics.
Name one difference between the human and chimp genomes that the mechanisms of mutation could not produce. Just one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 698 by Faith, posted 05-04-2019 12:07 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 796 by Faith, posted 05-06-2019 10:38 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(2)
Message 768 of 1385 (852057)
05-06-2019 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 766 by Dredge
05-06-2019 5:04 PM


Re: Another useful application of evolutionary theory
Dredge writes:
Yeah, right - your "evidence" is a few fossils with a gigantic gap between reptiles and mammals.
The fossils fill that gap.
You have no the slightest idea what so sort of environmental pressures would cause the jaw-bones of a reptile to evolve into the inner-ear bones of a mammal, nor can you begin to explain how the supposed mutations evolved in this process would confer survival advantages.
That screeching sound you hear is the goal posts being drug across the field. Are transitional fossils evidence or not?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 766 by Dredge, posted 05-06-2019 5:04 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 825 by Dredge, posted 05-07-2019 8:03 PM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 769 of 1385 (852058)
05-06-2019 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 762 by Faith
05-06-2019 4:42 PM


Re: Restating the question
Faith writes:
I have to come back to this later but please answer this question: Isn't it true that the human genome will create only a human being with human characteristics and there is nothing in it that could produce anything else or even a single characteristic of another species?
As you have already agreed, if we change the human genome into the chimp genome then we would get a chimp.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 762 by Faith, posted 05-06-2019 4:42 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 797 by Faith, posted 05-06-2019 10:50 PM Taq has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1705 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 770 of 1385 (852059)
05-06-2019 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 763 by Dredge
05-06-2019 4:50 PM


Re: Another useful application of evolutionary theory
Whatever.
Yes, 'whatever'...
When you said you "know" the inner-ear bones of a mammal evolved from the jaw-bones of a reptile, you were talking nonsense.
Seriously? How do you get that?
I just said that I don't "know" (your sense of the word) how it happened.
I'm beginning to think you have some serious comprehension problems.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 763 by Dredge, posted 05-06-2019 4:50 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 771 of 1385 (852060)
05-06-2019 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 756 by Faith
05-06-2019 11:23 AM


Re: Restating the question
Faith writes:
Don't be silly. I know you can't show anything I've asked you to show because it's impossible. You think it's possible so the burden is on you to show it, show SOMETHING, ANYTHING genetic that would show that you can get a completely new species from an existing species.
That's easy. The genetic differences between chimps and humans are the mutations that produced different species.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 756 by Faith, posted 05-06-2019 11:23 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 772 by Faith, posted 05-06-2019 5:21 PM Taq has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 772 of 1385 (852061)
05-06-2019 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 771 by Taq
05-06-2019 5:16 PM


Re: Restating the question
You guys are good at making unsupportable assertions or stating the Evo Creed over and over again and thinking you've actually said something scientific. It's ridiculous, Taq. You have to SHOW that mutations can turn an ape into a human. You have to show first of all how they can change something that is characteristic of a species into something entirely different that doesn't belong to that species. That is impossible for starters.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 771 by Taq, posted 05-06-2019 5:16 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 776 by JonF, posted 05-06-2019 5:33 PM Faith has replied
 Message 792 by Taq, posted 05-06-2019 6:39 PM Faith has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1705 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 773 of 1385 (852063)
05-06-2019 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 766 by Dredge
05-06-2019 5:04 PM


Re: Another useful application of evolutionary theory
Yeah, right - your "evidence" is a few fossils with a gigantic gap between reptiles and mammals. That's it.
So, what have you got?
Are you saying that we should ignore the data that are present?
You have no the slightest idea what so sort of environmental pressures would cause the jaw-bones of a reptile to evolve into the inner-ear bones of a mammal, nor can you begin to explain how the supposed mutations evolved in this process would confer survival advantages.
It is an explanation that fits the data, the timing and has a mechanism.
What is your explanation?
Nothing?
As usual, the massive holes in your tissue-thin "theory" are filled with huge doses of wishful thinking and blind faith in evolution.
So, we should just ignore the data that are present, because they do not satisfy you?
Sorry, it isn't going to work that way.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 766 by Dredge, posted 05-06-2019 5:04 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 775 by Faith, posted 05-06-2019 5:32 PM edge has not replied
 Message 868 by Dredge, posted 05-08-2019 6:20 PM edge has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 774 of 1385 (852064)
05-06-2019 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 595 by caffeine
04-28-2019 12:55 PM


Re: Another useful application of evolutionary theory
Thank you for the information. I need to re-acquaint myself with the details - my memory, my fragile eggshell mind and my low IQ (9) have conspired against me on this occasion.
Anyways, none of that weakens my argument: There is no fossil record of evolutionary ancestors for the many novel phyla that appeared during and after the Cambrian explosion. For example, trilobites, fish and insects seemingly appeared out of nowhere.
The best scientific argument for this evidence is genetic engineering performed by aliens (and not Darwinian evolution, which is little more than a glorified version of the nineteenth-century superstition of spontaneous generation).
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 595 by caffeine, posted 04-28-2019 12:55 PM caffeine has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 780 by edge, posted 05-06-2019 5:41 PM Dredge has replied
 Message 795 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-06-2019 9:12 PM Dredge has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 775 of 1385 (852065)
05-06-2019 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 773 by edge
05-06-2019 5:22 PM


Re: Another useful application of evolutionary theory
dredge writes:
You have no the slightest idea what so sort of environmental pressures would cause the jaw-bones of a reptile to evolve into the inner-ear bones of a mammal, nor can you begin to explain how the supposed mutations evolved in this process would confer survival advantages.
Not to mention that mutations, being random, aren't going to occur where you want them when you want them and it would take hundreds or thousands or millions of them before you'd get anything remotely close to the inner ear bones of the mammal, by which time you should have accumulated that many transitionals with so many bizarre looking bone things growing out of the reptile jaw all utterly useless to the animal, but still you think this is possible?
edge writes:
It is an explanation that fits the data, the timing and has a mechanism.
Oh I'm sure. Too bad it's impossible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 773 by edge, posted 05-06-2019 5:22 PM edge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 778 by JonF, posted 05-06-2019 5:39 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 869 by Dredge, posted 05-08-2019 6:26 PM Faith has not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 167 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 776 of 1385 (852066)
05-06-2019 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 772 by Faith
05-06-2019 5:21 PM


Re: Restating the question
All the differences between the human and chimp genome can be ascribed to mutations. Mutation is defined as a change in the genome. If we tabulated every difference between the two genomes we could produce a chimp by making those changes in a human genome and vice versa.Those changes would be mutations..
We haven't actually done this, it's beyond our current capabilities, and there's ethics issues. But the process would produce a genome identical to a chimp. It would produce a chimp.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 772 by Faith, posted 05-06-2019 5:21 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 798 by Faith, posted 05-06-2019 10:58 PM JonF has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 777 of 1385 (852067)
05-06-2019 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 597 by RAZD
04-28-2019 2:04 PM


Re: Scientific theory and "proof" vs validation/s
RAZD writes:
"My proposal is based upon an asymmetry between verifiability and falsifiability; an asymmetry which results from the logical form of universal statements. For these are never derivable from singular statements, but can be contradicted by singular statements."
””Karl Popper, Popper 1959. p 19
I suggest Karl Popper's grasp of the English language is pathetic - I understand very little of the above statement.
When a theory passes such testing it is said to be validated rather than "proven"
Okay. Thanks.
We know that all the evidence known to date is consistent with the theory of evolution explanation for the various intermediate stages of development of the mammal ear from the reptile ear, and that the theory of evolution provides the best known available explanation for this evidence.
One hundred and fifty years ago, the Darwinian explanation prevailed in primitive minds, but Darwin et al had no concept of advanced aliens from outer space and no experience of UFOs, but these days we know better.
The best scientific explanation for the history of life on earth is that it is the result of billions of years of aliens having fun with genetic engineering.
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 597 by RAZD, posted 04-28-2019 2:04 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 779 by JonF, posted 05-06-2019 5:40 PM Dredge has replied
 Message 783 by edge, posted 05-06-2019 5:48 PM Dredge has not replied
 Message 934 by RAZD, posted 05-10-2019 2:34 PM Dredge has replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 167 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 778 of 1385 (852069)
05-06-2019 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 775 by Faith
05-06-2019 5:32 PM


Re: Another useful application of evolutionary theory
... it would take hundreds or thousands or millions of them before you'd get anything remotely close to the inner ear bones of the mammal
Show the math. Small changes can have far-reaching consequences.
Of course the point is that you have no clue how many changes or what changes would be required over a time period about which you are, wait for it...
Clueless!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 775 by Faith, posted 05-06-2019 5:32 PM Faith has not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 167 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 779 of 1385 (852070)
05-06-2019 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 777 by Dredge
05-06-2019 5:35 PM


Re: Scientific theory and "proof" vs validation/s
We have no credible evidence of advanced aliens or interstellar travel.
ABE your inability to understand Popper is yours. That paragraph is well written and easily comprehended by one with the appropriate vocabulary.
Edited by JonF, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 777 by Dredge, posted 05-06-2019 5:35 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 873 by Dredge, posted 05-08-2019 6:35 PM JonF has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1705 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 780 of 1385 (852071)
05-06-2019 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 774 by Dredge
05-06-2019 5:25 PM


Re: Another useful application of evolutionary theory
Anyways, none of that weakens my argument: There is no fossil record of evolutionary ancestors for the many novel phyla that appeared during and after the Cambrian explosion. For example, trilobites, fish and insects seemingly appeared out of nowhere.
Please describe the genus and species of your Cambrian insects.
I'd also like to see your documentation of a Cambrian trout.
And an explanation of why the Edicaran-type of fauna could not be precursors to the Cambrian ones.
The best scientific argument for this evidence is genetic engineering performed by aliens (and not Darwinian evolution, which is little more than a glorified version of the nineteenth-century superstition of spontaneous generation).
According to you. As yet, you have provided no evidence of such aliens. You have no mechanism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 774 by Dredge, posted 05-06-2019 5:25 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 911 by Dredge, posted 05-09-2019 7:13 PM edge has replied

  
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