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Author Topic:   Any practical use for Universal Common Ancestor?
Dredge
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1004 of 1385 (852565)
05-13-2019 9:36 PM
Reply to: Message 971 by AZPaul3
05-12-2019 8:39 PM


Re: NO evidence of aliens
AZPaul3 writes:
We have the rodents in the Cretaceous through pretty much the entire radiation of mammals extent today as our example of microevolution resulting in a wide deep spread of macroevolution. We even have cow-like hippo things turning into fish-like whale things.
And fossils confirm nothing at all about what caused these changes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 971 by AZPaul3, posted 05-12-2019 8:39 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1009 by AZPaul3, posted 05-13-2019 10:16 PM Dredge has replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1005 of 1385 (852566)
05-13-2019 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 974 by AZPaul3
05-12-2019 8:51 PM


Re: Another useful application of evolutionary theory
AZPaul3 writes:
Dredge writes:
my aluminium hat is shaped like a radar dish. I haven't received any transmissions yet
You might want to try the Fedora style. I understand the folds are more conducive to the alien communication waveform.
Thanks, I'll try it. If it doesn't improve things, I expect you to pay for the aluminium foil I wasted.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 974 by AZPaul3, posted 05-12-2019 8:51 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1011 by AZPaul3, posted 05-13-2019 10:24 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1006 of 1385 (852567)
05-13-2019 9:44 PM
Reply to: Message 976 by AZPaul3
05-12-2019 8:59 PM


Re: Progressive Creation
We have the ToE which is so much better, so accurate, so successful, so predictive.
Yeah, right ... yet so many palaeontologists point out that there is very little evidence of evolution in the rocks! But hey, who cares what paleontologists think?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 976 by AZPaul3, posted 05-12-2019 8:59 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1010 by edge, posted 05-13-2019 10:23 PM Dredge has not replied
 Message 1014 by AZPaul3, posted 05-13-2019 10:30 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1007 of 1385 (852568)
05-13-2019 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 983 by AZPaul3
05-12-2019 9:45 PM


Re: Progressive Creation
AZPaul3 writes:
If the genius doesn't know anything about the subject then why is he expounding on it?
All I need to know is that genetic engineering has the potential to reshape the genome such that massive changes in morphology are possible.
That's not genius. That's egomaniac delusion.
Believing that your puny mechanisms of evolutionary can turn a rodent into a whale is grand delusion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 983 by AZPaul3, posted 05-12-2019 9:45 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1012 by edge, posted 05-13-2019 10:25 PM Dredge has not replied
 Message 1016 by AZPaul3, posted 05-13-2019 10:40 PM Dredge has not replied
 Message 1019 by Taq, posted 05-14-2019 6:14 PM Dredge has replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1025 of 1385 (853039)
05-21-2019 9:20 PM
Reply to: Message 988 by JonF
05-13-2019 9:03 AM


Re: Progressive Creation
I'm not a YEC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 988 by JonF, posted 05-13-2019 9:03 AM JonF has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1042 by AZPaul3, posted 05-22-2019 10:36 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1026 of 1385 (853040)
05-21-2019 9:48 PM
Reply to: Message 990 by Taq
05-13-2019 12:56 PM


Re: Another useful application of evolutionary theory
Taq writes:
Dredge writes:
My aliens are as invisible as your macroevolution.
Macroevolution is seen in every comparison of genomes:
Thousands of people have claimed to have seen UFOs - on the other hand, ZERO people have claimed to have seen macroevolution.
You're getting ahead of yourself - fossils show that macroevolution has occurred, but fossils don't tell us HOW it occurred. Your Darwinist explanation is merely one possible explanation ... which is supported by fossil evidence, but isn't CONFIRMED by fossil evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 990 by Taq, posted 05-13-2019 12:56 PM Taq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1058 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-22-2019 3:17 PM Dredge has replied
 Message 1288 by Larni, posted 07-06-2019 11:19 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1027 of 1385 (853041)
05-21-2019 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 991 by herebedragons
05-13-2019 2:43 PM


herebedragons writes:
How could you possibly know if all members of a genus shared a common ancestor? How could you know if several genera shared a common ancestor. For example: in the cat family, Felidae, there are at least 14 extant genera. Are each of these separate creations? or is each of the 8 lineages a separate creation? Or is the whole family descended from a common ancestor - as most creationists claim? What is your criteria for determining the answer?
Dredge writes:
Why would I need to answer these questions?
Well, I guess you wouldn't, seeing as how you are not a biologist and do not study biology or biological systems. If you did... these ARE questions you would want to know the answer to.
I didn't ask why "you would WANT to know the answer to" such questions. I asked why I - or more to the point - why a biologist would NEED to ask such questions. Why do you as a biologist NEED to link an extant organism you are studying to some distant ancestor that lived millions of years ago? I contend that doing so achieves nothing of any practical benefit - in other words, it's a useless exercise and a waste of time.
If you don't know what the ancestral state of a character is, how can you determine what the derived state is? How would you determine what traits were locally adapted? How would you determine how selection is affecting the character?
By "ancestral state" I take it you mean the ancestral state of an extant organism. But that's not what I'm talking about - obviously. You haven't yet explained to me how the theory of common descent is useful in your work. (Note: For Pete's sake don't confuse the "theory of common descent" with "common descent" - the latter is obviously useful in a practical sense.)
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 991 by herebedragons, posted 05-13-2019 2:43 PM herebedragons has not replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1028 of 1385 (853042)
05-21-2019 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 999 by AZPaul3
05-13-2019 8:58 PM


Re: Just to interject the YEC floodist view
AZPaul3 writes:
And testing? Every new fossil found is another test.
Fossils reveal that "evolution" has occurred, but fossils don't confirm any explanation for that "evolution".
You've heard of tiktaalik, right? Then you know that its discovery was a product of prediction from ToE.
One find in scientific terms is regarded as no more than luck - oh, except in evolutionary "science", in which the accepted norms of statistics are ignored when convenient.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 999 by AZPaul3, posted 05-13-2019 8:58 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1029 of 1385 (853043)
05-21-2019 10:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1000 by Tanypteryx
05-13-2019 9:05 PM


Re: Progressive Creation and Aliens (oh my) - no predictive ability - take 2
Tanyptyerx writes:
Curious that all this is incorrect. You have presented no evidence that contradicts the ToE. Which "novel" phyla?
What the evolutionary ancestors of a trilobite? Algae? Bacteria?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1000 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-13-2019 9:05 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1038 by edge, posted 05-22-2019 12:15 AM Dredge has not replied
 Message 1040 by Pressie, posted 05-22-2019 6:17 AM Dredge has not replied
 Message 1044 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-22-2019 10:53 AM Dredge has replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1030 of 1385 (853044)
05-21-2019 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 1009 by AZPaul3
05-13-2019 10:16 PM


Re: NO evidence of aliens
AZPaul3 writes:
Fossils give us great big clues to what happened and when
I agree - but fossils don't tell us HOW.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1009 by AZPaul3, posted 05-13-2019 10:16 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1041 by AZPaul3, posted 05-22-2019 10:28 AM Dredge has not replied
 Message 1046 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-22-2019 11:24 AM Dredge has replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1031 of 1385 (853045)
05-21-2019 10:21 PM
Reply to: Message 1013 by edge
05-13-2019 10:28 PM


Re: does a species from one genus evolve into a species from another genus ... yes
edge writes:
What are your criteria for determining 'outside tampering'.
Inexplicable gaps and sudden appearances of novel creatures in the fossil record - insects, for example.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1013 by edge, posted 05-13-2019 10:28 PM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1036 by edge, posted 05-22-2019 12:07 AM Dredge has not replied
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Dredge
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1032 of 1385 (853046)
05-21-2019 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1015 by edge
05-13-2019 10:36 PM


Re: Progressive Creation and Aliens (oh my) - no predictive ability - take 2
edge writes:
Dredge writes:
Where are the missing links between the Ediacaran fauna all the novel phyla that appeared during the Cambrian explosion? The evidence for these "ancestors" doesn't exist!
The progression is the evidence that evolution occurred.
Ah yes, but fossils don't confirm that Darwinian evolution is responsible for that progression. And insects appearing out of nowhere, for example, is hardly evidence of Darwinian evolution. Other huge gaps in the fossil record don't support Darwinism - they contradict it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1015 by edge, posted 05-13-2019 10:36 PM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1037 by edge, posted 05-22-2019 12:11 AM Dredge has not replied
 Message 1047 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-22-2019 11:45 AM Dredge has replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1033 of 1385 (853047)
05-21-2019 10:49 PM
Reply to: Message 1019 by Taq
05-14-2019 6:14 PM


Re: Progressive Creation
Taq writes:
You need to know more than that. You need to explain the following, and this is just a good start:
1. The twin nested hierarchies of morphology and genetics.
2. The difference in divergence between exons and introns.
3. The pattern of transition, transversion, and CpG substitution mutations.
4. Orthologous endogenous retroviruses and transposon insertions, and the pattern of divergence between the LTR's of a single ERV.
1. Aliens manipulated DNA to produce nested hierarchies. That capability is evident in the ancestral patterns of extant creatures.
As for 1-4, all these phenomena (which any Grade 7 student would be familiar with) are explained by 1. above - they are legacies of genetic engineering performed by aliens over millions of years.
Dredge writes:
Believing that your puny mechanisms of evolutionary can turn a rodent into a whale is grand delusion.
Only people who lack scientific evidence to support their claims stoop to calling people deluded. If you had evidence you would present it.
Consider this scenario:
One group of scientists is given the task of producing a whale from a rodent using the principles of mutations and artificial selection.
Another group of scientists is given the task of producing a whale from a rodent using the principles of genetics engineering.
Given that thousands of years of humans using mutations and artificial selection has failed to produce anything even close to macroevolution in any plants or animals, which group of scientists do you think is going to have the most success? (You don't have to be Einstein to come up with the correct answer!)
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1019 by Taq, posted 05-14-2019 6:14 PM Taq has not replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1034 of 1385 (853048)
05-21-2019 11:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1023 by RAZD
05-15-2019 1:01 PM


Re: does a species from one genus evolve into a species from another genus ... yes
RAZD writes:
there is evidence for macroevolution via known evolutionary processes
Nonsense - "known evolutionary processes" demonstrate nothing more "known evolutionary process". You are conflating wishful thinking and science.
sadly - for you - you are (still) wrong again. The changes documented in the fossil record show the pattern of proximity in space/time and in degree of evolution predicted by the ToE, and that are actually seen and documented in living species today: this is sufficient to say they are explained by the ToE. This what validation looks like.
Oh, and I suppose all those gaps and sudden appearances in the fossil record are predicted by ToE as well! Your quack theory relies on cheery-picking the evidence.
Curiously, missing information is not contradictory.
The "incomplete fossil record" excuse is running out of puff - Gunter Bechly considers the fossil record to be "saturated" - meaning, we have enough fossil evidence now to conclude that the record is complete in a general sense. That is to say, the gaps and sudden appearances will always be gaps and sudden appearances.
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1023 by RAZD, posted 05-15-2019 1:01 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1039 by edge, posted 05-22-2019 12:25 AM Dredge has not replied
 Message 1053 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-22-2019 12:26 PM Dredge has replied
 Message 1057 by RAZD, posted 05-22-2019 3:14 PM Dredge has not replied
 Message 1068 by Taq, posted 05-23-2019 1:02 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1035 of 1385 (853049)
05-21-2019 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1023 by RAZD
05-15-2019 1:01 PM


Re: does a species from one genus evolve into a species from another genus ... yes
RAZD writes:
And curiously, (micro)evolutionary change is still what the evidence shows
Yeah, right ... and this is why Gould described the fossil record as an "embarrassment" to Darwinian gradualism! Not even the reptile-jaw to mammalian-inner-ear fossil sequence demonstrates microevolutionary changes.
And apparently insects appearing out of nowhere demonstrates microevolutionary changes - hilarious!
out of nowhere" is really meaningless hyperbole in terms of the fossil record
Tell that to Gunter Bechly. Deny the evidence, if that's the best you can do.
It is amusing the lengths you've gone to in order to argue for an alien conspiracy theory instead of a fact based analysis ... because reality challenges your cherished strongly held beliefs (resulting in cognitive dissonance and resulting denial).
It amusing the lengths you've gone to in order to deny that my "aliens" theory is light years ahead of your simplistic, still-stuck-in-the-nineteenth-century Neo-Darwinism (a horse-drawn cart with new wheels is still a horse-drawn cart).
The history of science is littered with the remains of mediocre, conservative thinkers who couldn't adapt to change.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1023 by RAZD, posted 05-15-2019 1:01 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1051 by edge, posted 05-22-2019 12:20 PM Dredge has not replied
 Message 1059 by RAZD, posted 05-22-2019 3:21 PM Dredge has replied

  
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