Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 64 (9163 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,411 Year: 3,668/9,624 Month: 539/974 Week: 152/276 Day: 26/23 Hour: 2/4


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Any practical use for Universal Common Ancestor?
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(2)
Message 906 of 1385 (852351)
05-09-2019 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 882 by Tanypteryx
05-08-2019 7:32 PM


Re: Progressive Creation
Dredge writes:
Tanypteryx writes:
Well, I already know that you believe a lot of bullshit
An ad hominem attack is not science.
Well, you have not presented any science, so I was just describing what you have presented so far.
Telling the truth is not an ad hominem ... just a statement of fact.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 882 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-08-2019 7:32 PM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 934 of 1385 (852429)
05-10-2019 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 777 by Dredge
05-06-2019 5:35 PM


NO evidence of aliens
The best scientific explanation for the history of life on earth is that it is the result of billions of years of aliens having fun with genetic engineering.
Every "scientific explanation" (eg theory) is based on observed evidence. There is no evidence of "aliens having fun with genetic engineering" ergo it is not a scientific explanation but a made up fantasy.
I suggest Karl Popper's grasp of the English language is pathetic - I understand very little of the above statement.
Not surprising given your demonstrated lack of understanding of science in general.
Think of it this way:
Just as you cannot prove a negative unless you know all the information possible on a given topic, so too you cannot prove an absolute positive unless you know all the information possible on a given topic. You are left with dealing with the portion of the information that is available.
The best scientific explanation for the history of life on earth is that it is the result of billions of years of aliens having fun with genetic engineering.
A scientific explanation explains this information that is available and provides a mechanism that has also been observed to operate.
The ToE explains the known information and provides mechanisms (mutation and selection, drift, etc) that accounts for the information.
With no evidence of aliens, nor of any mechanism by which the insert their "genetic engineering" during observed processes of evolution, there is no basis for making this assumption. Particularly as the ToE does explain it without the use of aliens (Occam's wicked razor).
This is why the ToE has been validated and the "alien genetic experiment" concept has not.
One hundred and fifty years ago, the Darwinian explanation prevailed in primitive minds, but Darwin et al had no concept of advanced aliens from outer space and no experience of UFOs, but these days we know better.
Except that there is no evidence to substantiate any observation. Willow-the-wisp sights are not evidence of aliens.
But if you have something substantial, please present it.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 777 by Dredge, posted 05-06-2019 5:35 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 966 by Dredge, posted 05-12-2019 7:52 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(2)
Message 965 of 1385 (852486)
05-12-2019 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 863 by Dredge
05-08-2019 6:03 PM


Re: does a species from one genus evolve into a species from another genus ... yes
RAZD writes:
So the evidence of Pelycodus shows "a species from one genus evolved into a species of a new genus." The genus did not exist before this new nomenclature was applied.
The best scientific explanation for the appearance of a new genus is genetic engineering performed by aliens.
And they miraculously knew scientists were going to give it a new genus name instead of continuing the old one with a new species.
That's some wicked strong magic. How did they do that?
Except that the evidence shows an absence of outside tampering
On the contrary, the fossil record shows abundant evidence of "outside tampering".
Please provide. preferably documented in a scientific journal. I know of none.
while common ancestry in living species is observed and thus is a known process.
Certainly,, common ancestry is observed, but the evolution of a new genus has never been observed - even thousands of years of intensive artificial selection by humans - using every trick in the book - has failed to produce anything even close to a new genus. In other words, the evidence suggests the genus barrier cannot be crossed by natural means.
Mostly because producing a new genus was not the intent of artificial selection.
1. The fossil record cannot be explained by any observed process.
And yet it has been explained by the ToE, your refusal does not negate the explanation.
2. The existence of aliens may be "invisible" but it is not "undetectable" - the fossil record is powerful scientific evidence of genetic engineering - and the only scientific explanation for that engineering is aliens.
Please document with results of scientific study of same. Without substantiation this is just pseudoscience masquerading as science, and not worth the bandwidth taken to post
The difference between science and pseudoscience is substation by documented evidence. Pseudoscience is characterized by a lack of (if not distain for) evidence, relying instead on made up fantasies.
The Darwinian "explanation" is lame, outdated and little more than rehashed spontaneous generation - a nineteenth-century superstition.
And yet the ToE still explains all the known evidence. No it is not a rehash of spontaneous generation, and all that comment does is demonstrate your ignorance of evolution. Perhaps that is your reason for picking on aliens ...
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 863 by Dredge, posted 05-08-2019 6:03 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1003 by Dredge, posted 05-13-2019 9:30 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 1021 of 1385 (852673)
05-15-2019 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 966 by Dredge
05-12-2019 7:52 PM


Re: NO evidence of aliens
see reply to Message 997
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 966 by Dredge, posted 05-12-2019 7:52 PM Dredge has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 1022 of 1385 (852675)
05-15-2019 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 998 by Dredge
05-13-2019 8:50 PM


Re: Progressive Creation and Aliens (oh my) - no predictive ability - take 2
see response to Message 1003
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 998 by Dredge, posted 05-13-2019 8:50 PM Dredge has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(3)
Message 1023 of 1385 (852680)
05-15-2019 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1003 by Dredge
05-13-2019 9:30 PM


Re: does a species from one genus evolve into a species from another genus ... yes
Message 966
RAZD writes:
With no evidence of aliens, nor of any mechanism by which the insert their "genetic engineering" during observed processes of evolution, there is no basis for making this assumption.
If you can push ToE without producing any observable macroevolution then I can push my "aliens did it" theory without producing an observable alien. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
Except that there is evidence for macroevolution via known evolutionary processes, you just don't accept them. See 29+ Evidences for Macroevolution
The Scientific Case for Common Descent
for some known as of 2012.
RAZD writes:
Particularly as the ToE does explain it without the use of aliens (Occam's wicked razor). This is why the ToE has been validated and the "alien genetic experiment" concept has not.
It will take time for scientists to get used to my new theory. I predict that in ten years time, my "aliens did it" theory will have largely replaced the outdated and childishly inadequate theory of Darwinian evolution. So I suggest that the sooner you wake up and grow up out the nineteenth century, the better.
It will take forever without objective empirical evidence substantiating it. All you appear to have is anecdotal evidence and wishful thinking pretending to be science.
Message 997
RAZD writes:
... except that each fossil currently valides the ToE when it fits into the temporal/spatial matrix and the explanation provided by the ToE for getting from one spcies to another via known mechanisms of evolution.
I fear you're talking rubbish. Fossils confirm that life-forms on earth have changed over time, but fossils can't confirm or validate the cause of those changes. Fossils don't validate ToE and its mechanisms anymore than they validate my "aliens" theory and its mechanism of genetic engineering.
Sadly - for you - you are (still) wrong again. The changes documented in the fossil record show the pattern of proximity in space/time and in degree of evolution predicted by the ToE, and that are actually seen and documented in living species today: this is sufficient to say they are explained by the ToE. This what validation looks like.
Neither aliens nor "progressive creation" provide as complete an explanation of all facets of the evidence.
And ToE does? You're dreaming.
Nope, it is accepted by overwhelming majority of biological scientists (because ... see previous comment), and it is also confirmed by the independent analysis of genetic analysis and genome comparisons. Objective empirical evidence, unlike anecdotal evidence which you appear to rely on.
Message 998
RAZD writes:
Curious that aliens and gods only created evidence that completely mimics what the process of evolution would produce and only what the ToE predicts would occur.
Curious that you ignore all the evidence that contradicts ToE - where is the evidence for the evolutionary ancestors of trilobites, fish and insects? Where are the missing links between the Ediacaran fauna all the novel phyla that appeared during the Cambrian explosion? The evidence for these "ancestors" doesn't exist!
Curiously, missing information is not contradictory. That's called a swing and a miss:
Message 1003
RAZD writes:
Dredge writes:
On the contrary, the fossil record shows abundant evidence of "outside tampering".
Please provide. preferably documented in a scientific journal. I know of none.
Ever heard of the fossil record?
Citing the fossil record is not sufficient to claim evidence for "outside tampering" -- you have to show what tampering was involved and why it supports your claim. Objective empirical evidence ... that you are missing
Mostly because producing a new genus was not the intent of artificial selection.
For thousands of years, humans have tried to alter the characteristics of dogs, for example, in all sorts of ways using every trick in nature's toolbox - even resorting to unnatural methods such as inbreeding - but no one has managed to produce anything but more dogs. Obviously, there are genetic limits to how much organisms can change.
It was only when genetic engineering came along that the potential for producing radically different organisms was realised. Compared to genetic engineering, the mechanisms of evolution have been observed to produced only very limited and puny changes with a population. The claim that these evolutionary mechanisms can change a dinosaur into a bird (for example) are absurd and an embarrassment to science.
And curiously, (micro)evolutionary change is still what the evidence shows: limited changes from generation to generation, within the temporal/spacial matrix limitations. The preponderance of evidence of dinosaur to flightless feathered dinosaur to bird increases every year. Plus bone types and breating system. Another case of a "missing link" being filled in by later objective empirical evidence.
This hasn't been affected by progress in the relatively new field of genetic engineering. What genetic analysis has done is improve the evidence of evolutionary change explaning the known objective empirical evidence.
And yet the ToE still explains all the known evidence.
... like fish and insects appearing out of nowhere in the fossil record!
Yes. It provides the best explanation provided by science, based on objective empirical evidence rather than fantasy, anecdotal evidence, denial of science and wishful thinking.
... "out of nowhere" is really meaningless hyperbole in terms of the fossil record ... as it could be said of every fossil, which makes it redundant, tautological and banal, like most of your posts.
It is amusing the lengths you've gone to in order to argue for an alien conspiracy theory instead of a fact based analysis ... because reality challenges your cherished strongly held beliefs (resulting in cognitive dissonance and resulting denial).
quote:
TIP Sheet
CONSPIRACY THEORY & CONSPIRACISM
You say you believe the government is hiding something at Area 51-captured alien spacecraft, perhaps? The conjectures and rumors surrounding Area 51 comprise a revered conspiracy theory (many theories, actually). Do you believe the aliens among us are the hidden driving force in human history? ...
Test your favorite conspiracy against the following components typical of conspiracism and conspiracy theories:
  1. THEY (the conspirators) are a relatively small group, but powerful and corrupt. They are evil, or at least selfish, acting in their own interest and against the public interest. They have great foresight, patience, and deviousness. Nevertheless, they are not all-powerful or even that smart, really, since WE have figured them out.
  2. WE are a small, dedicated group of freedom fighters and freethinkers. We are soldiers, rebels in the fight for good against evil.
  3. YOU are clueless. Why can't you see what's going on here? (Conspiracy theorists place most people in this group.)
  4. THEY have hidden or destroyed all the evidence that would implicate them and have manufactured false evidence that exculpates them.
  5. YOU are close-minded. In fact, you are probably one of THEM.
The comfort of conspiracy theory is that it provides a well-defined enemy and a sense of control (or at least structure) in the face of upheaval and disempowerment; the tendency to perceive conspiracy is more common in groups experiencing social isolation or political marginalization. ...
Conspiracy theories and conspiracism share three problems:
  • Unfalsifiability
  • Fallacy
  • Naivete
Unfalsifiability
The main problem with any particular conspiracy theory is not that it's wrong, but that it's inarguable; not that it's false, but that it is unfalsifiable. Because it is unfalsifiable, a conspiracy theory is not provable or disprovable.
A theory is falsifiable if it is possible to test it against evidence to discover if it is true. To test a scientific theory, for example, a scientist would examine a body of evidence to formulate a general theory, which she, in turn, would test against more evidence to try to determine whether her theory might be true. Conspiracy theory is untestable because it invariably proposes that the evidence has been tampered with. ...
Fallacy
In addition to being unfalsifiable, conspiracy theories fall into a variety of fallacies. For example, the insufficiency of evidence leads to the fallacy of hasty conclusion. The tendency to demonize the conspirators falls into the ad hominem fallacy. Circular reasoning or special pleading emerges when, while the freedom fighters agree in principle that claims should be substantiated by evidence, in the special case of this conspiracy, evidence has been lost/altered/fabricated/destroyed. ...
Naivete
... Philosophy professor Jerry Goodenough at the University of East Anglia, U.K., points out in his article "Critical Thinking About Conspiracy Theories" (www.uea.ac.uk/~j097/CONSP01.htm) that "believers" often fail to take a sufficiently critical look at the quality of evidence, such as it is. Objective evidence for conspiracy theories is typically sketchy or absent. Eyewitness evidence, then, is the mainstay, even though study after study demonstrates the inaccuracy of most eyewitness accounts. ...
Sounds a lot like all the evolution disbelievers, from fundamentalist YEC to apologist OEC, IDologist, and science denialists. People who want reality to match their belief instead of belief matching reality.
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : .
Edited by RAZD, : ..

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1003 by Dredge, posted 05-13-2019 9:30 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1034 by Dredge, posted 05-21-2019 11:12 PM RAZD has replied
 Message 1035 by Dredge, posted 05-21-2019 11:32 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 1024 of 1385 (852690)
05-15-2019 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 997 by Dredge
05-13-2019 8:43 PM


Re: Progressive Creation and Aliens (oh my) - no predictive ability - take 2
See response to Message 1022
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 997 by Dredge, posted 05-13-2019 8:43 PM Dredge has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 1056 of 1385 (853128)
05-22-2019 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1049 by edge
05-22-2019 12:00 PM


YEC vs OEC
IIRC Dredge is an OEC
quote:
Old Earth creationism is a form of creationism which includes gap creationism, progressive creationism, and theistic evolution.[1] Old Earth creationism is typically more compatible with the scientific evidence on the issues of physics, chemistry, geology, and the age of the Earth, in contrast to young Earth creationism.[2]
And he has several times referred to "progressive creationism"
quote:
Progressive creationism (see for comparison intelligent design) is the religious belief that God created new forms of life gradually over a period of hundreds of millions of years. As a form of old Earth creationism, it accepts mainstream geological and cosmological estimates for the age of the Earth, some tenets of biology such as microevolution as well as archaeology to make its case. In this view creation occurred in rapid bursts in which all "kinds" of plants and animals appear in stages lasting millions of years. The bursts are followed by periods of stasis or equilibrium to accommodate new arrivals. These bursts represent instances of God creating new types of organisms by divine intervention. As viewed from the archaeological record, progressive creationism holds that "species do not gradually appear by the steady transformation of its ancestors; [but] appear all at once and "fully formed."[1]
Sound familiar?
Always good to try to understand what you are arguing against.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1049 by edge, posted 05-22-2019 12:00 PM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1060 by edge, posted 05-22-2019 4:37 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1095 by Dredge, posted 05-29-2019 4:00 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 1057 of 1385 (853130)
05-22-2019 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1034 by Dredge
05-21-2019 11:12 PM


Re: does a species from one genus evolve into a species from another genus ... yes
RAZD writes:
there is evidence for macroevolution via known evolutionary processes
Nonsense - "known evolutionary processes" demonstrate nothing more "known evolutionary process". You are conflating wishful thinking and science.
Actually it has been observed, in the field, and documented in scientific journal. Happened via mutation and selection ... known evolutionary processes, not by mystical alien invisible/undetectable fingers.
sadly - for you - you are (still) wrong again. The changes documented in the fossil record show the pattern of proximity in space/time and in degree of evolution predicted by the ToE, and that are actually seen and documented in living species today: this is sufficient to say they are explained by the ToE. This what validation looks like.
Oh, and I suppose all those gaps and sudden appearances in the fossil record are predicted by ToE as well! Your quack theory relies on cheery-picking the evidence.
Gaps were predicted by Darwin. "Sudden appearance" would be at the end of a gap, of course, and they were also well explained by Punctuated Equilibrium, something Darwin had also discussed.
Curiously, missing information is not contradictory.
The "incomplete fossil record" excuse is running out of puff - Gunter Bechly considers the fossil record to be "saturated" - meaning, we have enough fossil evidence now to conclude that the record is complete in a general sense. That is to say, the gaps and sudden appearances will always be gaps and sudden appearances.
Curiously, the record IS rather complete "in a general sense" ... meaning that in spite of the "gaps and sudden appearances" currently in the record, we know enough of the general process from LUCA to now to get the general picture of the diversity of life over the natural history of the planet. We also know that new finds will more likely fill in the gaps than present contrary evidence. That's because of the high confidence level scientists have with the ToE being the best explanation available at this time.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1034 by Dredge, posted 05-21-2019 11:12 PM Dredge has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 1059 of 1385 (853132)
05-22-2019 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 1035 by Dredge
05-21-2019 11:32 PM


Re: does a species from one genus evolve into a species from another genus ... yes
RAZD writes:
And curiously, (micro)evolutionary change is still what the evidence shows
Yeah, right ... and this is why Gould described the fossil record as an "embarrassment" to Darwinian gradualism!
But not to evolution in general. Even Darwin rejected universal gradualism. There is evidence of gradualism in the forminafera fossil record, and there is evidence of more rapid evolution and stasis (eg punk eek) in the fossil record. All known evolutionary processes.
Not even the reptile-jaw to mammalian-inner-ear fossil sequence demonstrates microevolutionary changes.
Wrong.
And apparently insects appearing out of nowhere demonstrates microevolutionary changes - hilarious!
Except they did not appear "out of nowhere" ...
That's 3 wrongs in 3 sentences. You really appear to know not that you know naught about this topic.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1035 by Dredge, posted 05-21-2019 11:32 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1063 by Phat, posted 05-22-2019 10:52 PM RAZD has replied
 Message 1084 by Dredge, posted 05-28-2019 12:47 AM RAZD has replied
 Message 1096 by Dredge, posted 05-29-2019 4:15 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 1065 of 1385 (853158)
05-23-2019 6:46 AM
Reply to: Message 1063 by Phat
05-22-2019 10:52 PM


Re: The Evidence Screams For Validation
Message 1062: ... For the record, I consider myself only as a Cosmological Creationist in that I believe that the universe was created by a supreme intelligence. Beyond that I have no belief. ...
Becoming Deist? Christian Deist?
... Biblical creationism never made much logical sense to me, but I dont reject it 100% due to the fact that so many people whom I otherwise respect DO in fact believe it.
Message 1063: I always enjoy reading these arguments, assertions, and litany of facts presented here at EvC by our science-qualified members. Just as I don't reject Biblical Creationism wholesale only because I know quite a few who believe it.
Logical fallacy of popularity, ie not a valid reason. Seems more like reluctance to me.
Evolution vs Creationism is hardly a black and white issue. I surmise that in fact both could be operating in principle at the same time.
I was told (by Mr Jack IIRC) that I was by definition a creationist when I first visited here, because I believe god/s created the universe, so that really opens up a spectrum of creationism versus "Biblical Creationism" (young, old, etc), ID etc.
The Evidence Screams For Validation
It really doesn't matter to me what one believes, as long as it is both logically consistent and consistent with the available evidence. Belief in a young earth is patently/provably false (Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1), as is belief in an actual world wide global flood.
Confirmation Bias, Cognitive Dissonance, cherry picking and idée fixes, are not the tools of an open-mind or an honest skeptic, and continued belief in the face of contradictory evidence is delusion.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1063 by Phat, posted 05-22-2019 10:52 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1085 by Dredge, posted 05-28-2019 12:54 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 1088 of 1385 (853503)
05-28-2019 6:43 AM
Reply to: Message 1084 by Dredge
05-28-2019 12:47 AM


Re: does a species from one genus evolve into a species from another genus ... yes
Punk eek is a "known" evolutionary process"?
Yes.
See Differential Dispersal Of Introduced Species - An Aspect of Punctuated Equilibrium
We also know speciation occurs as it too has been oberved.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1084 by Dredge, posted 05-28-2019 12:47 AM Dredge has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 1089 of 1385 (853504)
05-28-2019 6:53 AM
Reply to: Message 1085 by Dredge
05-28-2019 12:54 AM


aliens-did-it is not a scientific theory
RAZD writes:
It really doesn't matter to me what one believes, as long as it is both logically consistent and consistent with the available evidence
If that were true, you would have accepted my "aliens" theory, which is clearly scientifically superior to the nineteenth-century evolution story you can't let go of.
Except it is not logically consistent to propose unknown unobserved aliens when your actual belief is otherwise and there is an existing theory that adequately explains the evidence.
Nor do you have any actual evidence of aliens, nor any actual mechanism for achieving the purported process and you have no evidence of that process being anything other than standard ToE processes ...
... and it doesn't appear to be falsifiable - a drop-dead requirement of any actual scientific theory (but not for pseudoscience twaddle) ...
... unlike the ToE which is falsifiable, and it is chock full of actual observed mechanisms and actual observed processes, so no, it is no consistent with the available evidence no matter how much you pretend otherwise.
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : .

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1085 by Dredge, posted 05-28-2019 12:54 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1121 by Dredge, posted 05-31-2019 12:24 AM RAZD has replied
 Message 1152 by Dredge, posted 06-03-2019 12:54 AM RAZD has replied
 Message 1156 by Dredge, posted 06-03-2019 1:24 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 1123 of 1385 (853712)
05-31-2019 7:55 AM
Reply to: Message 1096 by Dredge
05-29-2019 4:15 AM


Re: does a species from one genus evolve into a species from another genus ... yes
... I think you’re a few fossils short to make that claim - by about a thousand . at least.
What you think is irrelevant.
So, about ten fossils ...
Whether it's 10 or 2000 is also irrelevant.
... spanning a period of millions of years demonstrate microevolutionary steps? ...
Yes, because each of the intermediate fossils show minor variation from preceding fossils -- slight relocation of bones, slight changes in relative sizes, these are microevolutionary steps, similar to what we see between dog varieties. Added up from one to the next to the next etc they show a gradual change over time from reptilian jaw and ear to mammalian jaw and ear.
Enjoy
References:
  1. THE THERAPSID--MAMMAL TRANSITIONAL SERIES
    quote:
    Not only is this explanation not "merely wishful conjecture", but it can be clearly seen in a remarkable series of fossils from the Triassic therapsids. The earliest therapsids show the typical reptilian type of jaw joint, with the articular bone in the jaw firmly attached to the quadrate bone in the skull. In later fossils from the same group, however, the quadrate-articular bones have become smaller, and the dentary and squamosal bones have become larger and moved closer together. This trend reaches its apex in a group of therapsids known as cynodonts, of which the genus Probainognathus is a representative. Probainognathus possessed characteristics of both reptile and mammal, and this transitional aspect was shown most clearly by the fact that it had TWO jaw joints--one reptilian, one mammalian:
    "Probainognathus, a small cynodont reptile from the Triassic sediments of Argentina, shows characters in the skull and jaws far advanced toward the mammalian condition. Thus it had teeth differentiated into incisors, a canine and postcanines, a double occipital condyle and a well-developed secondary palate, all features typical of the mammals, but most significantly the articulation between the skull and the lower jaw was on the very threshhold between the reptilian and mammalian condition. The two bones forming the articulation between skull and mandible in the reptiles, the quadrate and articular respectively, were still present but were very small, and loosely joined to the bones that constituted the mammalian joint . . . Therefore in Probainognathus there was a double articulation between skull and jaw, and of particular interest, the quadrate bone, so small and so loosely joined to the squamosal, was intimately articulated with the stapes bone of the middle ear. It quite obviously was well on its way towards being the incus bone of the three-bone complex that characterizes the mammalian middle ear." (Colbert and Morales, 1991, pp. 228-229)
    In a slightly later group, known as the ictidosaurians, the mammalian part of the double jaw joint seen in Probainognathus was strengthened, while the old reptilian part was beginning to become reduced in size. In describing a member of this group known as Diarthrognathus, paleontologists Colbert and Morales point out: "The most interesting and fascinating point in the morphology of the ictidosaurians (at least, as seen in Diarthrognathus) was the double jaw articulation. In this animal, not only was the ancient reptilian joint between a reduced quadrate and articular still present, but also the new mammalian joint between the squamosal and dentary bones had come into functional being. Thus, Diarthrognathus was truly at the dividing line between reptile and mammal in so far as this important diagnostic feature is concerned." (Colbert and Morales, 1991, p. 128)
    The therapsid-mammal transition was completed with the appearence of the Morganucodonts in the late Triassic. This group is described by paleontologist T.S. Kemp:
    "The axes of the two jaw hinges, dentary-squamosal and articular-quadrate, coincide along a lateral-medial line, and therefore the double jaw articulation of the most advanced cynodonts is still present . . . The secondary dentary-squamosal jaw hinge had enlarged (in the Morganucodonts) and took a greater proportion if not all of the stresses at the jaw articulation. The articular-quadrate hinge was free to function solely in sound conduction." (Strahler, 1987, p. 419)
    Thus, the fossil record demonstrates, during the transition from therapsid reptile to mammal, various bones in the skull slowly migrated together to form a second functional jaw joint, and the now-superfluous original jaw bones were reduced in size until they formed the three bones in the mammalian middle ear. The reptilian quadrate bone became the mammalian incus, while the articular bone became the malleus. The entire process had taken nearly the whole length of the Triassic period to complete, a time span of approximately 40 million years. Since the determining characteristic of a mammal in the fossil record is the structure of the jaw bone and joint, all of the therapsids up to the Morganucodonts are classified as reptiles, and all those after that are considered to be mammals. As Romer puts it, "We arbitrarily group the therapsids as reptiles (we have to draw a line somewhere) but were they alive, a typical therapsid probably would seem to us an odd cross between a lizard and a dog, a transitional type between the two great groups of backboned animals." (Romer, 1967, p. 227)
  2. Therapsida
    quote:
    Synapsida

    Therapsida
    —Raranimus
    Biarmosuchia
    Dinocephalia
    —Anteosauria
    Tapinocephalia
    Anomodontia
    —Venyukovioidea
    Dicynodontia
    Theriodontia
    —Gorgonopsia
    Therocephalia
    Cynodontia
    The Therapsids were one of the great success stories of the Permo-Triassic. First appearing in the middle or even the early (if Tetraceratops is a member of this group) Permian, they very quickly dominated terrestrial and semi-aquatic environments, filling a number of ecological niches and guilds, including felid, canid, bear, otter, ungulate, and even mole analogues, as well as many forms with no contemporary counterparts. In keeping with the episodic nature of synapsid evolution, there seem to have been at least two distinct dynasties, a middle Permian fauna dominated by dinocephalians and other primitive forms, and a late Permian fauna characterised by a wide range of more advanced carnivorous and herbivorous groups. These animals were so abundant (especially the herbivorous yet bizaarely specialised dicynodonts with their toothless beaks) that one could easily refer to this period as the age of therapsids, with both anapsid reptiles and relict pelycosaurs playing second fiddle. Their evolutionary success was unfortunately cut short by the end Permian extinction event, and although a number of lineages made it through to the Triassic, their protomammalian metabolism put them at a disadvantage in a hot dry Triassic world far more suited to sauropsid reptiles, and increasingly dominated by thecodontian archosaurs. They survived by becoming progressively smaller and more mammal-like, except for the dicynodonts which if anything became larger. By the time the dinosaurs had appeared, the therapsids had given rise to the first mammals, although one lineage of rodent-like, non-mammalian therapsids, the tritylodonts, would continue to the Middle Cretaceous. MAK120127

The cladogram in the second reference is hyperlinked to more details at each level. For instance you can click on Cynodontia and go to
Cynodontia
quote:
Therapsida

Cynodontia
—Procynosuchidae
Galesauridae
Eucynodontia
—Cynognathia
—Cynognathidae
Tritylodontidae
Probainognathia
—Tritheledontidae
Mammaliaformes
In the unbroken evolutionary sequence from reptile to mammal, the cynodonts are intermediate between earlier and more primitive theriodont therapsids and the earliest mammals. These highly successful animals first appear in the late Permian, radiate quickly into a number of different forms (including both terrestrial and semi-aquatic) before the end of the period, reach their maximum diversity in the Early Triassic, and become increasingly mammal-like as the Triassic progresses, giving rise to true mammals in the later Triassic. By the start of the Jurassic, only the insectivore-like tritheledonts and rodent-like tritylodonts remained; the latter continuing alongside true mammals throughout the Jurassic and even into the early Cretaceous.
In cladistic nomenclature, the term "cynodont" is also used to include mammals, which evolved from cynodonts and hence are, phylogenetically speaking, derived cynodonts. MAK120206

And you can click on Mammaliaformes and go to
Mammaliaformes
quote:
Cynodontia

Mammaliformes
—Allotheria
—Haramiyida
Multituberculata
—Paulchoffatiidae
Gondwanatheria
Cimolodonta
Morganucodontidae
Docodonta
—Megazostrodontidae
Docodontidae
Hadrocodium
Symmetrodonta
—Kuehneotheriidae

Mammalia
All of the early mammaliforms looked more or less like rodents and were about the same size as that most successful group of modern mammals. The mammaliform story is about internal, structural developments, many of which we have only begun to be able to study in the last decade. Understanding these changes unavoidably requires us to look at technical anatomical details. Some of the things to look for are these:
1) The dentary-squamosal jaw joint: All terrestrial vertebrates except mammaliforms form the jaw hinge between the articular and the quadrate. Mammaliforms form the joint between the dentary and the squamosal. This transition was well under way before mammaliforms got started.
2) The post dentary bones -- the articular and angular -- weren't lost. They, and the quadrate, became incorporated into the middle ear as the auditory ossicles. In mammals they are called the malleus, incus and stapes.
3) The inner ear was also re-engineered. The otic capsule became somewhat separated from the rest of the braincase as a pair of petrosals. Within the petrosal, one of the organs of hearing (the maculae) became first enlarged, and then coiled.
4) The teeth of mammals are almost unique in a number of respects. Instead of having lots of simple teeth that were replaced frequently, mammals have only one set of adult teeth which meet (occlude) in a very precise fashion.
5) Most importantly, mammals developed separate, specialized molars. Molars not only have points (cusps) which shear past each other, but have a certain cusps which grind food on relatively flat regions of the opposite molar. This system seems to have evolved separately at least three times and probably more often. Since most mammaliform remains consist of teeth, we have a great many examples of tooth forms. Unfortunately, the degree of convergent dental evolution has also greatly confused the picture.
6) The brain itself, and the surrounding bone, seems to have undergone some profound reorganization. After hundreds of millions of years of gradual retreat, the anterior part of the old palatoquadrate (the epipterygoid of reptiles) makes a strong come-back in mammaliforms in vatious guises such as the alisphenoid and orbitosphenoid -- structures that provide central support for the anterior skull.
7) these changes in the organization of the skull are accompanied by soft tissue changes in the distribution of the cranial nerves and the major blood vessels. These transitions remain poorly understood.
8) Post-cranially, as in reptiles, the limbs tended to move under the body. Surprisingly, mammals seem to have been very slow to acquire a truly erect stance; and the fore- and hind-limbs seemed to have evolved erect postures almost independently.
Of course, a great many other things were going on at the same time: lactation, increased body metabolism, body hair, and so on. But these are almost impossible to study directly in the fossil record. They remain, for the most part, matters of speculation.

And you can click on Mammalia and go to
Mammalia
quote:
Mammaliformes

Mammalia
—Australosphenida
—Ausktribosphenidae
Monotremata
Triconodonta
Spalacotheroidea
Cladotheria
—Dryolestoidea
Theria

—Metatheria
Eutheria
  1. Metabolic rate: transition to more or less full homeothermy inferred from geographic range, nocturnal habit, etc.
  2. Temporal fossa: increase in size; confluence with orbit.
  3. Zygomatic Arch: development; replacement of jaw adductor by masseter as principal jaw muscle; greatly increased capacity for oral processing of food.
  4. Reflected lamina of angularLower jaw: dentary becomes only significant element of mandible; development of coronoid process; reduction of post-dentary elements; reflected lamina of angular; dentary-squamosal jaw articulation. See infra, ear.
  5. Dentition: development of heterodont dentition with incisors, canines, pre-molars and molars; "permanent" (diphyodont) teeth with prismatic enamel; increasingly fixed pattern of occlusion; definite dental formula.
  6. Palate: full secondary palate.
  7. Ear: reflected lamina of the angular (tympanic); retroarticular process of articular; conversion of post-dentary bones to sensory use in middle ear. Reflected lamina may have been resonating chamber, followed by development of tympanic membrane framed by increasingly small and gracile reflected lamina and/or retroarticular process
  8. Pineal foramen: pineal foramen initially becomes more conspicuous, then recedes and is lost.
  9. Skull table: development of parietal crest with muscular attachment on outside of dermal bones.
  10. Braincase: parietal and squamosal spread downward to cover braincase, gradually replacing (in advanced mammals) neurocranium while providing muscle attachment on lateral (formerly dorsal) surface; epipterygoid changes from pillar supporting parietal and braincase to alisphenoid element of skull, continuous with parietal, squamosal, & petrosal (fused otic capsule). Brain size does not increase relative to diapsids.
  11. Skull fusions: fusion of parietals and frontals, otic capsule, occipitals, numerous other elements in therians; loss of dermal bones, e.g. post-orbitals.
  12. Skull attachment: double occipital condyle, condyles move ventrally, development of mammalian circular form.
  13. Spine: loss of lumbar ribs (reversed in advanced cynodonts & lost again in Mammalia); increase in number of sacral vertebrae (??); reduction of tail; vertebral articulations changed to accommodate dorsoventral undulation; vertebrae amphiplatyan (flat on both ends), implying loss of notochord remnants (?).
  14. Limb girdles: reduction (e.g. pubes, coracoids) or loss of ventral elements; more vertical orientation of limbs.
  15. Limbs: more vertical orientation; elongation of humerus & femur; digits shorter; calcaneal heel
  16. Integument: fur?; mammalian muzzle
  17. Habit: primitively large carnivores; great reduction in size; development of omnivorous and herbivorous adaptations. --ATW 001202


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1096 by Dredge, posted 05-29-2019 4:15 AM Dredge has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 1124 of 1385 (853713)
05-31-2019 8:19 AM
Reply to: Message 1121 by Dredge
05-31-2019 12:24 AM


Re: aliens-did-it is not a scientific theory
razd writes:
Except it is not logically consistent to propose unknown unobserved aliens when your actual belief is otherwise
I fear you are talking nonsense. Accepting “the best scientific explanation” has nothing to do with believing that theory is the truth.
You're moving the goalposts again. We were talking about logical consistency, not “the best scientific explanation.”
Meanwhile “the best scientific explanation” is still the one supported by all the evidence and by known observed processes rather than imaginary conflations of anecdote and wishful thinking.
there is an existing theory that adequately explains the evidence.
Let this be the last time you speak of this pathetic atheist delusion.
Curiously science is neither atheistic nor delusional ... you must be thinking of pseudoscience.
Nor do you have any actual evidence of aliens, nor any actual mechanism for achieving the purported process and you have no evidence of that process being anything other than standard ToE processes ...
1. How many folks claim to have seen UFOs or aliens? Thousands.
How folks claim to have seen a reptile evolve into a mammal via Darwinian processes? Zero.
2. The mechanism is genetic engineering. Ever heard of it? It produces observed, repeatable macroevolutions. Google it and learn . then wake up and grow up out of your primitive, simplistic, nineteenth-century Darwinist superstition. I suggest this for you own good.
Like I said, imaginary conflations of anecdote and wishful thinking.
How many folks claim to have seen UFOs or aliens? Thousands.
And yet not one is supported by any objective empirical evidence.
How folks claim to have seen a reptile evolve into a mammal via Darwinian processes? Zero.
Yet we can see the evidence of this transition in the fossils -- see Message 1123 for example. We don't need to see a murder to detect when one has taken place.
.. and it doesn't appear to be falsifiable
I can’t at this juncture think of a way to falsify my theory - but I will let the world know when I do.
And until that time, you do not have a scientific theory, just a imaginary conflations of anecdote and wishful thinking.
the ToE ... is chock full of actual observed mechanisms and actual observed processes,
. which do nothing more than describe limited variations within a population. ...
And Message 1123 adequately shows that the "limited variations within a population" can, population after population, build on one another to develop the evolutionary change over time from reptile to mammal.
... To get from this to an explanation for the fossil record, one needs to add huge doses of wild extrapolation and wishful thinking . as well as being blessed with a very vivid imagination.
Careful, you are quite succinctly describing your alien theory there.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1121 by Dredge, posted 05-31-2019 12:24 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024