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Author Topic:   Some states protect women's rights
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 16 of 286 (853126)
05-22-2019 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by ringo
05-22-2019 2:22 PM


I don't call them murderers, in fact you criticize me for not calling them murderers or not calling abortion murder. However, I think it is crucially important for women to know that abortion is killing an unborn child, because that's the only way the reality of the situation will affect their attitude toward abortion. The usual propaganda about abortion leaves it very vague what exactly is going on, using scientific terms like fetus and embryo to suggest it isn't really a living baby, aiming not to upset the pregnant woman and cause her to reject abortion. If she thinks it's not really a child, not a living thing even, abortion won't bother her.
But sometimes women inadvertently find out that it really is a living baby in spite of all the propaganda and that discovery can be very traumatic. Seeing the aborted fetus in the trash can when it does "look like a baby" has been the unhappy experience of some women who become terribly depressed as a result. I think we all know it's a baby in spite of ourselves anyway and that's why many women get depressed after an abortion even when they rationalize it away.
I had to see a film in which the fetus sucks its thumb and reacts to pain in the womb to realize that it is a living human being. That's what happened to Abby Johnson when she was running an abortion clinic. The reality finally came home to her that abortion kills human beings.
Pro-choicers knock themselves out trying to keep us from recognizing this reality, and it IS reality. When you KNOW the reality, that it IS a living human being, your conscience won't let you kill it. That's rock bottom. That's where we need to start talking on this subject, not on the level of "women's rights" which is a monumental deception since there is no way for a sane society to establish a Right to kill a human being at any stage of its development.
OF COURSE this is where pro-lifers focus, it is THE central issue, but you are wrong that we don't care about the women's situation and that's why there are services available all over the country (except Alabama?). They can always be improved of course._
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by ringo, posted 05-22-2019 2:22 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by ringo, posted 05-22-2019 3:11 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 17 of 286 (853127)
05-22-2019 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Tanypteryx
05-22-2019 2:37 PM


We don't need the government for any of this. It's the churches that run these services. So it's the churches that need to improve them where they are inadequate.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-22-2019 2:37 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-22-2019 3:40 PM Faith has not replied
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ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 18 of 286 (853129)
05-22-2019 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Faith
05-22-2019 2:44 PM


Faith writes:
I don't call them murderers, in fact you criticize me for not calling them murderers or not calling abortion murder.
You have a short memory. You have called them murderers, which is why I criticized you for not wanting to treat them as murderers.
Faith writes:
However, I think it is crucially important for women to know that abortion is killing an unborn child...
There you go again. If it was killing a "child", it would be murder.
Faith writes:
If she thinks it's not really a child, not a living thing even, abortion won't bother her.
Abortion bothers everybody. It's making the best of a bad situation.
Faith writes:
I think we all know it's a baby in spite of ourselves anyway....
You're being dishonest with yourself. If you really thought it was a "baby", you wouldn't be so loath to call abortion murder.

Izquierdo.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Faith, posted 05-22-2019 2:44 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


(3)
Message 19 of 286 (853133)
05-22-2019 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Faith
05-22-2019 2:46 PM


Faith writes:
We don't need the government for any of this.
Well, government is supposed to work for all of us. A lot of people think that our country is stronger if ALL our children have access to healthcare, enough to eat, a good education and a home.
Faith writes:
It's the churches that run these services. So it's the churches that need to improve them where they are inadequate.
Considering the number of children living in poverty today in the U.S. compared to other developed nations, the only way the churches could be doing a worse job is if they started starving children.
Churches routinely turn people away that don't meet their "Christian standards."

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Faith, posted 05-22-2019 2:46 PM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 20 of 286 (853134)
05-22-2019 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Faith
05-22-2019 2:46 PM


Faith writes:
We don't need the government for any of this.
If it isn't getting done, clearly we need somebody to do it.

Izquierdo.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Faith, posted 05-22-2019 2:46 PM Faith has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 21 of 286 (853136)
05-22-2019 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Faith
05-22-2019 12:05 PM


Nevertheless a fetus is genetically a full human being....
Well, I'm not sure whether "genetics" has anything to do with it, does it? I'd be concerned over your welfare regardless of what your "genetics" might be. Hell, I don't even care whether you even have genes! I certainly don't care how similar you are "genetically" to me or any other person.
"Genetics", I think, is going to be a dead end as an argument.

If this was a witch hunt, it found a lot of witches. -- David Cole, writing about the Mueller investigation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Faith, posted 05-22-2019 12:05 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Sarah Bellum, posted 05-25-2019 9:15 AM Chiroptera has replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 167 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


(1)
Message 22 of 286 (853140)
05-22-2019 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by ringo
05-22-2019 1:56 PM


Those services constantly lie to pregnant women.
Page not found | Journal of Ethics | American Medical Association
quote:
Crisis pregnancy centers are organizations that seek to intercept women with unintended pregnancies who might be considering abortion. Their mission is to prevent abortions by persuading women that adoption or parenting is a better option. They strive to give the impression that they are clinical centers, offering legitimate medical services and advice, yet they are exempt from regulatory, licensure, and credentialing oversight that apply to health care facilities. Because the religious ideology of these centers’ owners and employees takes priority over the health and well-being of the women seeking care at these centers, women do not receive comprehensive, accurate, evidence-based clinical information about all available options. Although crisis pregnancy centers enjoy First Amendment rights protections, their propagation of misinformation should be regarded as an ethical violation that undermines women’s health....
As nonprofit organizations, CPCs have the right to exist. Indeed, they could provide a valuable resource for some women, particularly those seeking material support for a pregnancy they plan to continue [33]. However, as we have seen, they also employ dubious communication strategies”withholding information about abortion referral, not being transparent about clinically and ethically relevant details, or using inflammatory language to scare women and dissuade them from having abortions [3, 8, 9].
Honest information about the perspective from which they dispense advice and support, in addition to forthright acknowledgement of their limitations, is essential for these centers to provide an ethical service to women. For no other medical procedure would someone who is not a health care professional seek to give detailed counseling on the risks of the procedure. CPCs should provide clear advertising and refrain from providing misleading and false information about abortion. Clear acknowledgement that no abortion referrals will be made would also be a step in the right direction. Until taxpayers can be assured that these centers conform to ethical standards of licensed medical facilities, offer sound medical advice, and do not lead to harm, states should refrain from directly or indirectly funding these centers.
Finally, health care professionals should be aware of the existence of CPCs and alert to the harms they can cause. Because primary care physicians who encounter pregnancy diagnoses may not be comfortable with options counseling [34], they should educate themselves about where women can obtain comprehensive reproductive health care locally to avoid referrals to CPCs for women considering abortion. Health care professionals also should support laws, like California’s, that regulate CPCs by preventing them from withholding critical information about abortion availability from women seeking abortion.
The Truth About 7 Lies You Might Hear At A Crisis Pregnancy Center
quote:
Abortion will cause mental health problems....
Abortion causes drug and alcohol abuse....
Abortion increases breast cancer risk....
Abortion increases breast cancer risk....
It’s possible to reverse an abortion....
Abortion can result in heavy bleeding, organ damage, infection, and death (True but misleading - JonF)...
Having an abortion can increase risk of miscarriages or infertility later on.
Discussion of why these are lies or misleading at the link. Many women have attested to encountering these, such as the stories at CPCs Lie - We Are UltraViolet or
You’ve reached a 404 page..
Oh, yeah, lots of them lie about birth control too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by ringo, posted 05-22-2019 1:56 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by ringo, posted 05-22-2019 4:55 PM JonF has not replied
 Message 24 by Faith, posted 05-23-2019 1:31 AM JonF has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 23 of 286 (853141)
05-22-2019 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by JonF
05-22-2019 4:49 PM


JonF writes:
Those services constantly lie to pregnant women.
Well, that would explain why there aren't enough resources to provide actual services.

Izquierdo.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by JonF, posted 05-22-2019 4:49 PM JonF has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 24 of 286 (853151)
05-23-2019 1:31 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by JonF
05-22-2019 4:49 PM


I think your lists are the lies. I've never heard those things. I suppose CPC do present objections to abortion but there's no reason to think they do it as stupidly as you like to think. Nobody forces the women to stay through the pregnancy, they can go get an abortion if that's what they decide to do, but of course the CPC does its best to convince her that this is a baby and abortion kills babies. Your stuff sounds like fake news to me, propaganda to discredit these services. What, you found ONE such service somewhere so that tars all of them? there must be thousands of them across the country.
When I mentioned these services I was thinking of how they help to get women through a pregnancy. That is their purpose. They provide supplies, there is a gynecologist who is available on a schedule, they provide living quarters if necessary, they provide help with employment if necessary, they provide counseling and discuss at great length whether the woman/girl wants to keep the baby or give it up for adoption, and they provide whatever preparation is needed for whichever she chooses. To my mind all this IS the help you say we conservatives don't offer along with our pro-life objections to abortion. It's really quite a lot of help.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


(4)
Message 25 of 286 (853187)
05-23-2019 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Faith
05-23-2019 1:31 AM


Faith writes:
Your stuff sounds like fake news to me, propaganda to discredit these services. What, you found ONE such service somewhere so that tars all of them? there must be thousands of them across the country.
This sounds exactly like the Bullshit I hear being spread about Planned Parenthood.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Faith, posted 05-23-2019 1:31 AM Faith has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 286 (853240)
05-24-2019 12:01 AM


According to the bible, God is actually hugely in favor of infanticide. There's at least 20 separate verses defending the practice and a few where God actually delights in it.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Pressie, posted 05-24-2019 7:16 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 27 of 286 (853255)
05-24-2019 7:16 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Hyroglyphx
05-24-2019 12:01 AM


Yip. According to lots of versions of Jewish and Christian Holy Books Spookie ordered them to get rid of unborns and their mothers at the same time. Spookie and then the same Spookies ordered it again later.
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Sarah Bellum
Member (Idle past 595 days)
Posts: 826
Joined: 05-04-2019


Message 28 of 286 (853285)
05-25-2019 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Chiroptera
05-22-2019 4:16 PM


Is the fetus a human being? Is it a living creature that we allow you to kill?
Is it a human being or not?
A different question is, "Should it be permissible to kill it?" We ban killing of some things that aren't human beings. It's forbidden to butcher your dog, for instance, or shoot a horse that is healthy. But where do we stand on the nine month journey from conception to birth? If an egg cell and a sperm cell are combined in a petri dish, is the result a human being with the same rights as a one-year-old toddler? Is a nine-month gestation fetus merely a mass of tissue devoid of any rights it might have an hour later after its birth? Does a fetus at five months gestation deserve more or less protection by the law than your pet cat?
Here's another question. Suppose you were introduced to Sandy, an adult human being who suffered from a terminal illness that could be cured by hooking Sandy's circulatory system up to a healthy individual's circulatory system for nine months (I think there was a Star Trek episode where Spock had to save his father's life by a similar method).
Suppose the day after meeting Sandy you wake up in a hospital hooked up to Sandy through a machine. The doctors tell you there is no alternative. Nobody else but you can keep Sandy from dying (You have some kind of special blood type, like Spock). If there's a possibility of damage to you, they promise they'll halt the procedure and you can go home, but otherwise you're stuck.
For some reason, however, they leave the switch to the machine in your reach. Do you have the right to flip the switch to OFF?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Chiroptera, posted 05-22-2019 4:16 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Chiroptera, posted 05-25-2019 11:18 AM Sarah Bellum has replied
 Message 31 by ringo, posted 05-25-2019 11:41 AM Sarah Bellum has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 286 (853294)
05-25-2019 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Sarah Bellum
05-25-2019 9:15 AM


No obligation to let others use your body.
Hi, Sarah.
Have you read Peter Singer? Your example is right out of Practical Ethics, where Singer promotes his version of utilitarian ethics. If a person hasn't really thought about a systemic philosophy of ethics, then I recommend Singer's book as a good starting point.
Do you have the right to flip the switch to OFF?
But utilitarianism isn't the end-all and be-all of ethics. I, myself, am not a utilitarian, so I would answer: no person is morally obligated to leave the swith ON.
-
Good question to ask the pro- life crowd, though.

If this was a witch hunt, it found a lot of witches. -- David Cole, writing about the Mueller investigation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Sarah Bellum, posted 05-25-2019 9:15 AM Sarah Bellum has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Sarah Bellum, posted 05-25-2019 11:36 AM Chiroptera has replied

  
Sarah Bellum
Member (Idle past 595 days)
Posts: 826
Joined: 05-04-2019


Message 30 of 286 (853295)
05-25-2019 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Chiroptera
05-25-2019 11:18 AM


Re: No obligation to let others use your body.
Interesting.
Do we have a moral obligation to provide for the poor? Do we have a moral obligation to remedy the lingering ill-effects of segregation? Is there a moral obligation to throw a life preserver to a swimmer in distress?
I'm not talking about a matter of law, of course, but a matter of morals.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Chiroptera, posted 05-25-2019 11:18 AM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Chiroptera, posted 05-25-2019 12:44 PM Sarah Bellum has replied

  
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