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Author Topic:   What Benefits Are Only Available Through God?
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 196 of 438 (853316)
05-25-2019 11:44 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by Phat
05-25-2019 10:03 PM


Re: a god made the folking deal: your belief in exchange for a ransom paid to himself
We have no evidence that they suffer for eternity.
quote:
There you go, writing the laws of evidence as if you define reality yourself.
-Thug
The God I worship is not petty and vindicative...He has no need to enforce the rules He supposedly made...He is quite able to wipe them off the books.
Yet she cannot provide anything less evil than a bloodthirsty evolution in a violent universe for her favorite monkey? Not much use as a god is she.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by Phat, posted 05-25-2019 10:03 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by Phat, posted 05-26-2019 8:02 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 197 of 438 (853318)
05-26-2019 8:02 AM
Reply to: Message 196 by AZPaul3
05-25-2019 11:44 PM


Re: a god made the folking deal: your belief in exchange for a ransom paid to himself
Yet she cannot provide anything less evil than a bloodthirsty evolution in a violent universe for her favorite monkey? Not much use as a god is she.
First of all, "She" owes you nothing. Not squat. While you may thus claim that "she' is of little use, you can, of course, claim that she is a figment of your imagination, to begin with, and thus have a handy copout. If you honestly conclude that there is no GOD, God, or god (jars favorite terminology) the fact remains that GOD may still exist and likely differs from anything that you, I, or Stan Lee can imagine. The Biblical authors seem to suggest that they have the Deity defined, but critics will argue that this idea is far from probable. You are of course free to believe as you like, but might I suggest that if you are wrong, you will be faced with the same idea that I am faced with(A God who exists and who is unlike anything that I ever would or could have imagined) at which point we both are basically at the Deities mercy. You may argue that such a scenario is extremely unlikely while I may argue that it is within a reasonable realm of probability and that I, in fact, will believe. The basic fact is that humanity has never actually traveled beyond this dust speck on which we live and have postulated the truths of a vast universe based only on our maths and our data.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by AZPaul3, posted 05-25-2019 11:44 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by jar, posted 05-26-2019 9:52 AM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 198 of 438 (853322)
05-26-2019 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 197 by Phat
05-26-2019 8:02 AM


Re: a god made the folking deal: your belief in exchange for a ransom paid to himself
Phat writes:
If you honestly conclude that there is no GOD, God, or god (jars favorite terminology) the fact remains that GOD may still exist and likely differs from anything that you, I, or Stan Lee can imagine.
Again Phat, there is ample and irrefutable evidence that Gods and gods exist. They are ubiquitous and well documented. They are all also demonstrably ALL human creations.
There is NO evidence that any GOD or GODs exist.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Phat, posted 05-26-2019 8:02 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by Phat, posted 05-26-2019 10:15 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 199 of 438 (853323)
05-26-2019 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by jar
05-26-2019 9:52 AM


Re: a god made the folking deal: your belief in exchange for a ransom paid to himself
Welcome back!
Yes, I realize this. There is no way to prove that GOD exists.
I am attempting to explain the construct to AZPaul3. Remember the construct that you taught me?
How did you word it? Something along the lines of IF GOD exists, GOD exists regardless of anyones belief that GOD does not exist....

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by jar, posted 05-26-2019 9:52 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by jar, posted 05-26-2019 10:41 AM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(2)
Message 200 of 438 (853326)
05-26-2019 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 199 by Phat
05-26-2019 10:15 AM


Re: a god made the folking deal: your belief in exchange for a ransom paid to himself
You always seem to neglect the second part of the construct.
If GOD does not exist then GOD does not exist regardless of anyone's belief that GOD does exist.
And the topic is also still "What Benefits Are Only Available Through God? " and the answer is still "There is no evidence of any benefits only available through God."

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by Phat, posted 05-26-2019 10:15 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by Phat, posted 05-26-2019 12:41 PM jar has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 201 of 438 (853330)
05-26-2019 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by jar
05-26-2019 10:41 AM


As An Aside...
jar writes:
And the topic is also still "What Benefits Are Only Available Through God? " and the answer is still "There is no evidence of any benefits only available through God."
The fact that there is no evidence does not negate the possibility.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by jar, posted 05-26-2019 10:41 AM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by Tangle, posted 05-26-2019 2:02 PM Phat has replied
 Message 205 by AZPaul3, posted 05-26-2019 2:36 PM Phat has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 202 of 438 (853334)
05-26-2019 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by Phat
05-26-2019 12:41 PM


Re: As An Aside...
Phat writes:
The fact that there is no evidence does not negate the possibility.
If no evidence has been found where evidence should be found, that generally rules out the hypothesis.
Why do you think there is no evidence?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by Phat, posted 05-26-2019 12:41 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by Phat, posted 05-26-2019 3:12 PM Tangle has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 203 of 438 (853335)
05-26-2019 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by Phat
05-25-2019 4:08 PM


Re: a god made the folking deal: your belief in exchange for a ransom paid to himself
Phat writes:
Did it ever occur to you that there may be a reason that there is no evidence that God Himself allowed happening for precisely the reason of testing the human heart?
Worst copout ever. The leprechauns want you to have faith in them. Bigfoot wants you to have faith in him.

Izquierdo.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by Phat, posted 05-25-2019 4:08 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by Phat, posted 05-26-2019 3:10 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 204 of 438 (853336)
05-26-2019 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by Phat
05-25-2019 10:03 PM


Re: a god made the folking deal: your belief in exchange for a ransom paid to himself
Phat writes:
We have no evidence that they suffer for eternity.
The evidence for eternal suffering comes from the same source as the evidence for Jesus. You're cherry-picking to patch together your made-up God.

Izquierdo.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by Phat, posted 05-25-2019 10:03 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by Phat, posted 05-26-2019 3:09 PM ringo has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 205 of 438 (853337)
05-26-2019 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by Phat
05-26-2019 12:41 PM


Re: As An Aside...
The fact that there is no evidence does not negate the possibility.
By the same math using the same weights the same can be said of any human conjuring. Flying Spaghetti Monster, Invisible Pink Unicorn (MTABTOIHF)*, Great Green Arkleseizure, Aphrodite, Cthulhu.
Since this universe doesn't seem to show these human conjectures as having any reality we can assign the same possibility and legitimacy to each. Vanishingly small so as to be non-existent. And with no discernible, demonstrable, effect or attributes from these entities on anything in our universe we can assign a utility of zero. They are worthless to us.
"Possibility" only requires a wishful glance and means nothing. Evidence, even the lack thereof, requires fact and is everything.
* May There Always Be Tasty Oats In Her Feedbag
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by Phat, posted 05-26-2019 12:41 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by Phat, posted 05-26-2019 3:07 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 206 of 438 (853339)
05-26-2019 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by AZPaul3
05-26-2019 2:36 PM


Re: As An Aside...
And yet I was led to believe. It was not from cultural brainwashing, though that admittedly softened the beach. It was from God Himself. Granted I cannot prove this...

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by AZPaul3, posted 05-26-2019 2:36 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by Tangle, posted 05-26-2019 3:15 PM Phat has replied
 Message 212 by AZPaul3, posted 05-26-2019 3:20 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 207 of 438 (853340)
05-26-2019 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by ringo
05-26-2019 2:08 PM


Re: a god made the folking deal: your belief in exchange for a ransom paid to himself
ringo writes:
You're cherry-picking to patch together your made-up God.
Ask the question of why it is important to me that you entertain the possibility? We can go down that rabbit trail if you want.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by ringo, posted 05-26-2019 2:08 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by ringo, posted 05-26-2019 3:18 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 208 of 438 (853341)
05-26-2019 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by ringo
05-26-2019 2:05 PM


Re: a god made the folking deal: your belief in exchange for a ransom paid to himself
ringo writes:
The leprechauns want you to have faith in them. Bigfoot wants you to have faith in him.
And yet they don't. Why is God as I understand Him any different?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by ringo, posted 05-26-2019 2:05 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by ringo, posted 05-26-2019 3:20 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 209 of 438 (853342)
05-26-2019 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by Tangle
05-26-2019 2:02 PM


Re: As An Aside...
Why do you think there is no evidence?
What possible evidence could there be, apart from the believers themselves? Assuming that we have a spark in us that others lack. Of course, critics will label it as kool-aid.
If no evidence has been found where evidence should be found, that generally rules out the hypothesis.
So tell me where evidence should be found.
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by Tangle, posted 05-26-2019 2:02 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by Tangle, posted 05-26-2019 3:24 PM Phat has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 210 of 438 (853343)
05-26-2019 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by Phat
05-26-2019 3:07 PM


Re: As An Aside...
Phat writes:
It was not from cultural brainwashing
Of course it was, that's why you believe in Jesus not Mohamed. Nobody becomes a Christian unless they've heard of Christ. Why is that?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by Phat, posted 05-26-2019 3:07 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by Phat, posted 05-26-2019 3:33 PM Tangle has replied

  
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