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Author | Topic: What Benefits Are Only Available Through God? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
What does that have to do with what you quoted? ringo writes:
Ask the question of why it is important to me that you entertain the possibility? We can go down that rabbit trail if you want. You're cherry-picking to patch together your made-up God.Izquierdo.
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8529 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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And yet I was led to believe. Well, if you ever change your mind we have plenty of room at our table for you, Thug. And we won't be throwing m&ms at you for crossing yourself left-to-right instead of right-to-left. We'll find other reasons to throw m&ms at you.Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I say they do, with the same authority that you say God does. Why is it okay to make that argument for God but not for other myths?
ringo writes:
And yet they don't. The leprechauns want you to have faith in them. Bigfoot wants you to have faith in him. Phat writes:
He isn't. Why is God as I understand Him any different? Edited by ringo, : Fixed quotes.Izquierdo.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7
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Phat writes: What possible evidence could there be, apart from the believers themselves? Your god is supposed to intervene in our world. We don't see it. Prayers are supposed to be answered. They aren't.
Assuming that we have a spark in us that others lack. Of course, critics will label it as kool-aid. Critics will label it narcissism and bullshit. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Phat Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Quora is a valuable website that helps me to ask better questions. As an example, note the following exchange:
My Initial Question: Does God exist? Response: Many believe the question is unanswerable (yet many others answer it quite easily. In fact, anyone except agnostics).There is little agreement on what God is. There is no proof to clearly indicate that many of the definitions of God do or do not exist. All known indications that there is a God (or gods, for that matter) come from unverifiable sources, such as the Bible, word-of-mouth traditions, or fallible humans. The notion of the term 'existence' is hardly explained. The question seems too vague to answer. Many believe that this answer requires a leap of faith Because God is ultimately beyond human comprehension no definition will serve, thus it is hard for people to agree on the nature of God. Proof would reduce God to a thing, an element of many like stars, planets or people. Thus the search for "scientific" evidence of God is quixotic at best. Note: The above two points imply the rationality of not using rationality to think about big matters (including God). This leaves open the question: What is to replace that rationality? Since we ultimately need to use sth. Or don't we? The only indication of God's existence that matters [for some people] is the insight, the intuition that God does indeed exist. This insight [presumably] opens a world of possibilities foreclosed to the mind of each individual human. The Bible (The 'the' seems misleading) has long ceased to be word-of-mouth. It is the oldest continually maintained record of "history" in Western Culture. It is not a traditional history in 20th-century terms, but its deliberate inclusion of embarrassing and damning criticism of its own people serves as a "witness against interest" which is taken as a high standard in testimony. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
We disagree. I say He is. You say he isn't. Are you trying to convince me that He isn't? Because honestly, I am attempting to show you the possibility that He is.
Should I simply give up on this argument? After all, nobody even considers believing in something that they are unconvinced has any value. I find no value in Leprechauns nor in Big Foot. I DO find value in ringo. Yet ringo never seems to adopt an argument whereby he(you) suggest the possibility of God. Now, why is that? Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Is or isn't what? We disagree. I say He is. You say he isn't. I say - specifically - that your God being invisible because He wants us to have faith in Him is no different from leprechauns being invisible because they want us to have faith in them. If you think there is a difference, you have to tell us what it is.
Phat writes:
Of course not. I'm pointing out to anybody else who is interested why your beliefs make no sense.
Are you trying to convince me that He isn't? Phat writes:
Have I ever denied the "possibility" of your God?
I am attempting to show you the possibility that He is. Phat writes:
You might as well give up the claim that your God is different from a leprechaun. You're not fooling anybody.
Should I simply give up on this argument? Phat writes:
The real question is Why do you dismiss leprechauns and Bigfeet but accept a God which is no more likely? Yet ringo never seems to adopt an argument whereby he(you) suggest the possibility of God. Now, why is that?Izquierdo.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Phat writes: Quora is a valuable website that helps me to ask better questions. As an example, note the following exchange: I'm not interested in copy and paste quora, I asked *you* a question. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8529 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Yet ringo never seems to adopt an argument whereby he(you) suggest the possibility of God. Now, why is that? Maybe because a "possibility" of something like a god is of no consequence. Only when there is demonstrable evidence of her workings, workings that can only be accomplished by and attributed to the god, is there sufficient reason to consider the matter. Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.
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Phat Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Your god is supposed to intervene in our world. We don't see it. Some of us do. Granted not all see it. Prayers are supposed to be answered. They aren't. Again...not all prayers are answered. Some are answered. Who suggested they all should be answered? After all, it is a valid question for a hypothetical God to consider. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Some see Bigfoot, some don't.
Some of us do. Phat writes:
Bigfoot answers some prayers, not all.
Again...not all prayers are answered. Some are answered. Phat writes:
What proportion do YOU think would be adequate to justify saying, "God answers prayer"? One in a million? What proportion would be low enough for you to call it coincidence? Who suggested they all should be answered?Izquierdo.
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jar Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Why has there never been a single example of a prayer answered under controlled circumstances?
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Phat writes: Some of us do. Granted not all see it. By “we don't see it” I mean that we cannot see any objective evidence of it. Not that some individuals belief that they see it but can't demonstrate it.
Again...not all prayers are answered. Some are answered. Please show me which prayers have been answered.
Who suggested they all should be answered? I'm asking for objective evidence for *any*.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2
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quote: Apparently it was Jesus. Matthew 7:7-10 (NRSV)
7 “Ask, and it will be given you; search, and you will find; knock, and the door will be opened for you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and everyone who searches finds, and for everyone who knocks, the door will be opened. 9 Is there anyone among you who, if your child asks for bread, will give a stone? 10 Or if the child asks for a fish, will give a snake? 11 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good things to those who ask him!
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Phat Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
The reason that i use the quotes from Quora is nbecause they essentiall articulate the basic arguments which i myself would use...and with better grammar than i likely would use.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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