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Author Topic:   What Benefits Are Only Available Through God?
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 211 of 438 (853344)
05-26-2019 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by Phat
05-26-2019 3:09 PM


Re: a god made the folking deal: your belief in exchange for a ransom paid to himself
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
You're cherry-picking to patch together your made-up God.
Ask the question of why it is important to me that you entertain the possibility? We can go down that rabbit trail if you want.
What does that have to do with what you quoted?

Izquierdo.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Phat, posted 05-26-2019 3:09 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 212 of 438 (853345)
05-26-2019 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by Phat
05-26-2019 3:07 PM


Re: As An Aside...
And yet I was led to believe.
Well, if you ever change your mind we have plenty of room at our table for you, Thug. And we won't be throwing m&ms at you for crossing yourself left-to-right instead of right-to-left. We'll find other reasons to throw m&ms at you.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 213 of 438 (853346)
05-26-2019 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by Phat
05-26-2019 3:10 PM


Re: a god made the folking deal: your belief in exchange for a ransom paid to himself
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
The leprechauns want you to have faith in them. Bigfoot wants you to have faith in him.
And yet they don't.
I say they do, with the same authority that you say God does. Why is it okay to make that argument for God but not for other myths?
Phat writes:
Why is God as I understand Him any different?
He isn't.
Edited by ringo, : Fixed quotes.

Izquierdo.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Phat, posted 05-26-2019 3:10 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by Phat, posted 05-26-2019 3:41 PM ringo has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 214 of 438 (853347)
05-26-2019 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by Phat
05-26-2019 3:12 PM


Re: As An Aside...
Phat writes:
What possible evidence could there be, apart from the believers themselves?
Your god is supposed to intervene in our world. We don't see it. Prayers are supposed to be answered. They aren't.
Assuming that we have a spark in us that others lack. Of course, critics will label it as kool-aid.
Critics will label it narcissism and bullshit.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by Phat, posted 05-26-2019 3:12 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by Phat, posted 05-26-2019 5:04 PM Tangle has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 215 of 438 (853348)
05-26-2019 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by Tangle
05-26-2019 3:15 PM


Re: As An Aside...
Quora is a valuable website that helps me to ask better questions. As an example, note the following exchange:
My Initial Question: Does God exist?
Response:
Many believe the question is unanswerable (yet many others answer it quite easily. In fact, anyone except agnostics).
There is little agreement on what God is.
There is no proof to clearly indicate that many of the definitions of God do or do not exist.
All known indications that there is a God (or gods, for that matter) come from unverifiable sources, such as the Bible, word-of-mouth traditions, or fallible humans.
The notion of the term 'existence' is hardly explained. The question seems too vague to answer.
Many believe that this answer requires a leap of faith
Because God is ultimately beyond human comprehension no definition will serve, thus it is hard for people to agree on the nature of God.
Proof would reduce God to a thing, an element of many like stars, planets or people. Thus the search for "scientific" evidence of God is quixotic at best.
Note: The above two points imply the rationality of not using rationality to think about big matters (including God). This leaves open the question: What is to replace that rationality? Since we ultimately need to use sth. Or don't we?
The only indication of God's existence that matters [for some people] is the insight, the intuition that God does indeed exist. This insight [presumably] opens a world of possibilities foreclosed to the mind of each individual human.
The Bible (The 'the' seems misleading) has long ceased to be word-of-mouth. It is the oldest continually maintained record of "history" in Western Culture. It is not a traditional history in 20th-century terms, but its deliberate inclusion of embarrassing and damning criticism of its own people serves as a "witness against interest" which is taken as a high standard in testimony.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by Tangle, posted 05-26-2019 3:15 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by Tangle, posted 05-26-2019 4:12 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 216 of 438 (853350)
05-26-2019 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by ringo
05-26-2019 3:20 PM


Re: a god made the folking deal: your belief in exchange for a ransom paid to himself
We disagree. I say He is. You say he isn't. Are you trying to convince me that He isn't? Because honestly, I am attempting to show you the possibility that He is.
Should I simply give up on this argument? After all, nobody even considers believing in something that they are unconvinced has any value. I find no value in Leprechauns nor in Big Foot. I DO find value in ringo. Yet ringo never seems to adopt an argument whereby he(you) suggest the possibility of God. Now, why is that?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by ringo, posted 05-26-2019 3:20 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by ringo, posted 05-26-2019 3:52 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 219 by AZPaul3, posted 05-26-2019 4:29 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 217 of 438 (853351)
05-26-2019 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by Phat
05-26-2019 3:41 PM


Re: a god made the folking deal: your belief in exchange for a ransom paid to himself
Phat writes:
We disagree. I say He is. You say he isn't.
Is or isn't what?
I say - specifically - that your God being invisible because He wants us to have faith in Him is no different from leprechauns being invisible because they want us to have faith in them. If you think there is a difference, you have to tell us what it is.
Phat writes:
Are you trying to convince me that He isn't?
Of course not. I'm pointing out to anybody else who is interested why your beliefs make no sense.
Phat writes:
I am attempting to show you the possibility that He is.
Have I ever denied the "possibility" of your God?
Phat writes:
Should I simply give up on this argument?
You might as well give up the claim that your God is different from a leprechaun. You're not fooling anybody.
Phat writes:
Yet ringo never seems to adopt an argument whereby he(you) suggest the possibility of God. Now, why is that?
The real question is Why do you dismiss leprechauns and Bigfeet but accept a God which is no more likely?

Izquierdo.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by Phat, posted 05-26-2019 3:41 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by foreveryoung, posted 05-26-2019 10:31 PM ringo has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 218 of 438 (853352)
05-26-2019 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by Phat
05-26-2019 3:33 PM


Re: As An Aside...
Phat writes:
Quora is a valuable website that helps me to ask better questions. As an example, note the following exchange:
I'm not interested in copy and paste quora, I asked *you* a question.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Phat, posted 05-26-2019 3:33 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by Phat, posted 05-26-2019 9:27 PM Tangle has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 219 of 438 (853356)
05-26-2019 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by Phat
05-26-2019 3:41 PM


Re: a god made the folking deal: your belief in exchange for a ransom paid to himself
Yet ringo never seems to adopt an argument whereby he(you) suggest the possibility of God. Now, why is that?
Maybe because a "possibility" of something like a god is of no consequence. Only when there is demonstrable evidence of her workings, workings that can only be accomplished by and attributed to the god, is there sufficient reason to consider the matter.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by Phat, posted 05-26-2019 3:41 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 220 of 438 (853358)
05-26-2019 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by Tangle
05-26-2019 3:24 PM


Re: As An Aside...
Your god is supposed to intervene in our world. We don't see it.
Some of us do. Granted not all see it.
Prayers are supposed to be answered. They aren't.
Again...not all prayers are answered. Some are answered. Who suggested they all should be answered? After all, it is a valid question for a hypothetical God to consider.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Tangle, posted 05-26-2019 3:24 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by ringo, posted 05-26-2019 5:16 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 222 by jar, posted 05-26-2019 5:33 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 223 by Tangle, posted 05-26-2019 5:48 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 224 by PaulK, posted 05-26-2019 6:05 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 221 of 438 (853359)
05-26-2019 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by Phat
05-26-2019 5:04 PM


Re: As An Aside...
Phat writes:
Some of us do.
Some see Bigfoot, some don't.
Phat writes:
Again...not all prayers are answered. Some are answered.
Bigfoot answers some prayers, not all.
Phat writes:
Who suggested they all should be answered?
What proportion do YOU think would be adequate to justify saying, "God answers prayer"? One in a million? What proportion would be low enough for you to call it coincidence?

Izquierdo.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by Phat, posted 05-26-2019 5:04 PM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 222 of 438 (853360)
05-26-2019 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by Phat
05-26-2019 5:04 PM


Re: As An Aside...
Why has there never been a single example of a prayer answered under controlled circumstances?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by Phat, posted 05-26-2019 5:04 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 223 of 438 (853361)
05-26-2019 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by Phat
05-26-2019 5:04 PM


Re: As An Aside...
Phat writes:
Some of us do. Granted not all see it.
By “we don't see it” I mean that we cannot see any objective evidence of it. Not that some individuals belief that they see it but can't demonstrate it.
Again...not all prayers are answered. Some are answered.
Please show me which prayers have been answered.
Who suggested they all should be answered?
I'm asking for objective evidence for *any*.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by Phat, posted 05-26-2019 5:04 PM Phat has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(2)
Message 224 of 438 (853363)
05-26-2019 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by Phat
05-26-2019 5:04 PM


Re: As An Aside...
quote:
Who suggested they all should be answered?
Apparently it was Jesus.
Matthew 7:7-10 (NRSV)
7 “Ask, and it will be given you; search, and you will find; knock, and the door will be opened for you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and everyone who searches finds, and for everyone who knocks, the door will be opened. 9 Is there anyone among you who, if your child asks for bread, will give a stone? 10 Or if the child asks for a fish, will give a snake? 11 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by Phat, posted 05-26-2019 5:04 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 225 of 438 (853367)
05-26-2019 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by Tangle
05-26-2019 4:12 PM


Re: As An Aside...
The reason that i use the quotes from Quora is nbecause they essentiall articulate the basic arguments which i myself would use...and with better grammar than i likely would use.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by Tangle, posted 05-26-2019 4:12 PM Tangle has not replied

  
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