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Author Topic:   Some states protect women's rights
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 46 of 286 (853468)
05-27-2019 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Dogmafood
05-27-2019 7:25 PM


Re: No obligation to let others use your body.
I know you thought hard about it, and I know you didn't and don't regard it as a child even though you use that word, but since it was a child, if you could see it as a child, you would have to go into mourning for it, as I did for my aborted child twenty years after the fact when I finally faced that it was a child. In my case I'd even had a dream a few days after the abortion of a small child, maybe two years old, waving to me out of the back window of a hearse and I still didn't mourn, I just thought it was an interesting dream. It took seeing babies in the womb in a movie, very early fetuses even, to come to mourn it. Even thinking of it now makes me cry. I know, however, as King David knew about his baby with Bathsheba, that I will meet that child in the presence of Jesus after I die. Nevertheless it still makes me cry to think about it.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Dogmafood, posted 05-27-2019 7:25 PM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Dogmafood, posted 05-27-2019 8:02 PM Faith has replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 47 of 286 (853470)
05-27-2019 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Faith
05-27-2019 7:10 PM


Re: No obligation to let others use your body.
I guess if I don't like my liver I could ask to have it cut out of me
right you could ask that (you'd have to find a doctor willing) because it's your body, you have sovereignty over your body.

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Faith, posted 05-27-2019 7:10 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Faith, posted 05-27-2019 7:59 PM DrJones* has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 48 of 286 (853472)
05-27-2019 7:59 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by DrJones*
05-27-2019 7:45 PM


Re: No obligation to let others use your body.
yeah I guess there's nothing too bizarre to give as an example for the Izquierdo.
I keep thinking how a real newborn baby elicits a love from the mother that in most cases is never felt in this llfe in any other context. It was to me an amazing experience. I had had an easy pregnancy but I think that love would have made up for any degree of discomfort emotional or physical. Not all new mothers have this experience but I know many who do. If this is "Nature's" motivation for taking care of babies it certainly works. I couldn't feel that for my llver. But then I'd be dead anyway.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by DrJones*, posted 05-27-2019 7:45 PM DrJones* has not replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 348 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 49 of 286 (853473)
05-27-2019 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Faith
05-27-2019 7:38 PM


Re: No obligation to let others use your body.
I know you thought hard about it, and I know you didn't and don't regard it as a child even though you use that word,
I use that word because that is exactly how I think about him. He was a child, a person, a human... and I killed him by choice because I thought that was the best option. The least amount of suffering.
What i didn't choose was the list of options.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Faith, posted 05-27-2019 7:38 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Faith, posted 05-27-2019 8:03 PM Dogmafood has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 50 of 286 (853474)
05-27-2019 8:03 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Dogmafood
05-27-2019 8:02 PM


Re: No obligation to let others use your body.
You could not kill a real child, I simply cannot believe you. You've talked yourself into this but not faced the reality of what a child is. When you first saw your other children as newborns, could you have killed them?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Dogmafood, posted 05-27-2019 8:02 PM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Dogmafood, posted 05-27-2019 8:19 PM Faith has replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 348 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


(4)
Message 51 of 286 (853476)
05-27-2019 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Faith
05-27-2019 8:03 PM


Re: No obligation to let others use your body.
Picture your newborn child with some affliction that you could not overcome. Picture your newborn child suffering in agony only to die after you have exhausted your every effort. Picture yourself helpless and impotent and responsible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Faith, posted 05-27-2019 8:03 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Faith, posted 05-28-2019 3:53 AM Dogmafood has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 52 of 286 (853481)
05-27-2019 9:26 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Sarah Bellum
05-27-2019 8:20 AM


Re: Is the fetus a human being? Is it a living creature that we allow you to kill?
I would say, yes, there is a definite difference. Childbirth is a natural procedure that women have been going through for quite a long time. Your mother went through it, probably.
Removing a kidney requires a deliberate act. It won't happen if you just sit around and do nothing.
Aren’t they the same ethically?
Aren't these both examples of others determining what you can do with your body? In one case, to keep a wanted part in, in the other, to have an unwanted part removed. But the operator of the body, the soul that has to face the consequences that result from that action, does not get to decide?
As for what my mother went through, I don't know. I don't remember being there.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Sarah Bellum, posted 05-27-2019 8:20 AM Sarah Bellum has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Faith, posted 05-27-2019 9:37 PM AZPaul3 has replied
 Message 70 by Sarah Bellum, posted 05-28-2019 6:56 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 53 of 286 (853483)
05-27-2019 9:37 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by AZPaul3
05-27-2019 9:26 PM


Re: Is the fetus a human being? Is it a living creature that we allow you to kill?
In the case of childbirth, what "others" are "determining what you can do with your body?" Nature? Until very recently abortion wasn't even possible anyway. Oh forget it I'm tired of arguing for the obvious in this environment.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by AZPaul3, posted 05-27-2019 9:26 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Theodoric, posted 05-27-2019 9:49 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 55 by AZPaul3, posted 05-27-2019 10:00 PM Faith has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 54 of 286 (853484)
05-27-2019 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Faith
05-27-2019 9:37 PM


Re: Is the fetus a human being? Is it a living creature that we allow you to kill?
On her way out the door Faith told another easily refuted untruth.
Until very recently abortion wasn't even possible anyway.
quote:
The practice of abortion”the termination of a pregnancy”has been known since ancient times.
History of abortion - Wikipedia

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Faith, posted 05-27-2019 9:37 PM Faith has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 55 of 286 (853485)
05-27-2019 10:00 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Faith
05-27-2019 9:37 PM


Re: Is the fetus a human being? Is it a living creature that we allow you to kill?
In the case of childbirth, what "others" are "determining what you can do with your body?"
Your political party as influenced by your church.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Faith, posted 05-27-2019 9:37 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 56 of 286 (853501)
05-28-2019 3:53 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Dogmafood
05-27-2019 8:19 PM


Re: No obligation to let others use your body.
Picture your newborn child with some affliction that you could not overcome. Picture your newborn child suffering in agony only to die after you have exhausted your every effort. Picture yourself helpless and impotent and responsible.
If that was your situation then I am truly sympathetic with your plight. That is THE situation that I would find the hardest to llve with, that would make abortion seem the best most humane option for all concerned. I don't think I could support abortion in the end anyway, but I have to say I'd have to think and pray it through a thousand times before I could decide, and I could never criticize anyone who chose that solution. Of all the reasons people give for abortion that is the only one that is persuasive to me. Thanks for describing it.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Dogmafood, posted 05-27-2019 8:19 PM Dogmafood has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Theodoric, posted 05-28-2019 11:34 AM Faith has replied
 Message 58 by ringo, posted 05-28-2019 11:50 AM Faith has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 57 of 286 (853510)
05-28-2019 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Faith
05-28-2019 3:53 AM


Re: No obligation to let others use your body.
That and the health and life of the mother are the reason for all late term abortions.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Faith, posted 05-28-2019 3:53 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Faith, posted 05-28-2019 3:34 PM Theodoric has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 58 of 286 (853515)
05-28-2019 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Faith
05-28-2019 3:53 AM


Re: No obligation to let others use your body.
Faith writes:
... I'd have to think and pray it through a thousand times before I could decide, and I could never criticize anyone who chose that solution.
And yet you support the idea of the government telling you you can't do it.

Izquierdo.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Faith, posted 05-28-2019 3:53 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Faith, posted 05-28-2019 3:33 PM ringo has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 59 of 286 (853535)
05-28-2019 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by ringo
05-28-2019 11:50 AM


Re: No obligation to let others use your body.
Actually I'd rather persuade people that they don't really want to kill their child than get the government involved in any of it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by ringo, posted 05-28-2019 11:50 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by ringo, posted 05-28-2019 3:43 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 60 of 286 (853536)
05-28-2019 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Theodoric
05-28-2019 11:34 AM


Re: No obligation to let others use your body.
I seriously doubt that. A very few perhaps but in those cases you could save the llfe of the child, which is certainly viable in the third trimester. You don't have to kill it.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Theodoric, posted 05-28-2019 11:34 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Theodoric, posted 05-28-2019 4:07 PM Faith has replied

  
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