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Author Topic:   Any practical use for Universal Common Ancestor?
Dredge
Member (Idle past 92 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1070 of 1385 (853369)
05-26-2019 10:20 PM
Reply to: Message 992 by AZPaul3
05-13-2019 4:43 PM


AZPaul3 writes:
This video (YouTube) is from the American Museum of Natural History.
Without an understanding of a UCA and the genetic bush that sprang from it, this stuff would be meaningless.
I watched this video and I can't see why the theory of common descent (UCA) is important to any of it. So please explain what you mean, as I fear you are in the grip of some sort of delusion that I can perhaps help you escape from.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 992 by AZPaul3, posted 05-13-2019 4:43 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1101 by AZPaul3, posted 05-29-2019 5:24 AM Dredge has replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 92 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1071 of 1385 (853371)
05-26-2019 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1069 by Sarah Bellum
05-25-2019 9:42 AM


Sarah Bellum writes:
A great deal of knowledge is sought after without a desire for "practical use". Much of that knowledge is later found to be of enormous "practical" use, of course.
Hmm, 150 years of the "knowledge" that all life on earth descended from a common ancestor and no practical yet ...
If everybody took the attitude that "practical" is the only measure of the need for knowledge
Which part of the OP contains that attitude? You seem to have slipped into "straw man" mode.
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1069 by Sarah Bellum, posted 05-25-2019 9:42 AM Sarah Bellum has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1257 by Sarah Bellum, posted 06-25-2019 8:44 AM Dredge has replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 92 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1072 of 1385 (853373)
05-26-2019 10:52 PM
Reply to: Message 996 by JonF
05-13-2019 8:39 PM


Re: Restating the question
JonF writes:
Your "understanding" is nonsense
from "Humans Are Not 98% Genetically Identical to Chimpanzees", lifesitenews.com:
"First, the 98% figure is probably overstated. An article in Science puts the actual figure at 94%. (Jon Cohen, "Relative Differences: The Myth of 1%, June 29, 2007). But even these figures are only measuring about 2% of our total genetic makeup - that is, those genes that code for proteins, the building blocks of our physical bodies and functions.
The vast majority of our DNA, known as "non-coding DNA" - sometimes called "junk DNA" because it was once thought not to have function - is very different in humans from most non-coding genes found in chimps and other apes. However, recent research has found that, contrary to previous belief, this repetitive DNA isn’t "junk" after all, but has distinct purposes."
-------------------------------------------------------------------
from "The Mismeasure of Man: Why Popular Ideas about Human-Chimp Comparisons Are Misleading or Wrong", evolutionnews.org:
"You have probably heard that our DNA, the stuff that makes us human, is only 1% different from chimps. The claim that we are little more than apes is now part of the Zeitgeist of our culture, having been propagated in the popular press for nearly forty years. However, that statement and the conclusions drawn from it are false.
Let’s look at the first claim, that we are only 1% different from chimps. That measurement only compares base changes in human and chimp DNA. It doesn’t include other kinds of changes to the DNA, like deletions and insertions or rearrangements. In addition, because of the sequencing methods used, repetitive DNA is not included.
Now that complete or nearly complete genome sequences for humans and chimps are available, a better picture of our differences and similarities is emerging. A 2007 essay in the journal Science, "Relative Differences: The Myth of 1%," says this (the pdf is here ):
Researchers are finding that on top of the 1% distinction, chunks of missing DNA, extra genes, altered connections in gene networks, and the very structure of chromosomes confound any quantification of "humanness" versus "chimpness."
To be specific, in addition to the 1% distinction already noted, entire genes are either duplicated or deleted between the two species, sometimes in long stretches called segmental duplications. Such duplications represent a 6.4% difference between chimps and humans. There are also insertions and deletions within genes, which affect the structure and function of the proteins they encode. That contributes another 3%, according to some estimates. And there are entirely new genes, specific to humans.
There are also changes that affect the timing and amount of gene expression. These changes include the insertion of new regulatory sequences upstream of genes. For example, some 6% of our genome is unique Alu insertions, as they are called. And Alu sequences are known to affect gene expression.
In addition, there are human-specific increases in DNA methylation that affect gene expression in the brain, and increased RNA modifications in the brain. These changes would not be detected by simply comparing DNA sequences. Yet they affect gene expression and interaction. Indeed, by one measure, 17.4% of gene regulatory networks in the brain are unique to humans.
Then there are DNA rearrangements. How genes are organized along chromosomes, and even the chromosomes structures themselves can be different. Our Y-chromosomes are strikingly different from those of chimps, for example. This was a surprise to researchers, given the relatively short time our species supposedly diverged from one another. Rearrangements are also not included in the 1% number, and are difficult to quantify.
It should be apparent that we are only beginning to discover important differences between chimps and us, so our numbers are incomplete. In fact, there is no clear way even to count the changes. Beyond that, we do not even know yet how many or which of these differences are functionally important. Perhaps not all are. However, it would be a mistake (one that has been made before) to assert that none of them are functionally significant, as the Encode project demonstrated.
From the same Science paper:
Could researchers combine all of what’s known and come up with a precise percentage difference between humans and chimpanzees? "I don’t think there’s any way to calculate a number," says geneticist Svante Pbo, a chimp consortium member based at the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig, Germany. "In the end, it’s a political and social and cultural thing about how we see our differences." [Emphasis added.]"
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 996 by JonF, posted 05-13-2019 8:39 PM JonF has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1075 by JonF, posted 05-27-2019 9:22 AM Dredge has replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 92 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1073 of 1385 (853376)
05-26-2019 11:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1060 by edge
05-22-2019 4:37 PM


Re: YEC vs OEC
edge writes:
believes the earth to be something 'more than 10ky' in age, which would hardly qualify him as a legitimate old earther.
But we may never really know, considering the cryptic and sometimes contradictory nature of his posts.
Poor edge; so easily confused - but God bless you for doing your best.
I accept the scientific evidence that suggests life on earth began billions of years ago as bacteria. Over time, more complex life-forms appeared - giving an overall appearance of "evolution". I don't believe this " evolution" is the result of a natural process of biological evolution, but the result of miracles performed by a divine Creator. Then man was created instantaneuosly from dirt about 7,000-10,000 years ago. This is my belief ... as opposed to my "aliens" theory, which is my scientific explanation for the history of life on earth (you understand of course that a belief and a scientific explanation can be mutually exclusive).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1060 by edge, posted 05-22-2019 4:37 PM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1074 by vimesey, posted 05-27-2019 1:52 AM Dredge has replied
 Message 1076 by edge, posted 05-27-2019 10:04 AM Dredge has replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 92 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1078 of 1385 (853490)
05-27-2019 11:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1044 by Tanypteryx
05-22-2019 10:53 AM


Re: Progressive Creation and Aliens (oh my) - no predictive ability - take 2
Tanypteryx writes:
I will ask again, which novel phyla are you talking about?
What organism from the Ediacaran biota is the evolutionary ancestor of trilobites?
"Early trilobites show all the features of the trilobites group as a whole; transitional or ancestral forms showing or combining the features of trilobites with other groups (eg, early arthropods) do not seem to exist" - Wikipedia, "Trilobite".
Your evidence of Darwinian evolution leading to the Cambrian explosion does a very good impression of spontaneous generation ... which is hardly surprising - both concepts are products of nineteenth-century superstition.
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1044 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-22-2019 10:53 AM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1080 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-28-2019 12:23 AM Dredge has replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 92 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1079 of 1385 (853492)
05-28-2019 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 1045 by Tangle
05-22-2019 11:00 AM


Re: Progressive Creation
Tangle writes:
This guy is also a 10, though for different reasons.
Thank you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1045 by Tangle, posted 05-22-2019 11:00 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 92 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1081 of 1385 (853494)
05-28-2019 12:28 AM
Reply to: Message 1058 by Tanypteryx
05-22-2019 3:17 PM


Re: Another useful application of evolutionary theory
Tanypteryx writes:
Well, except for all the scientists who have documented speciation occurring, which is how science defines macroevolution.
Speciation is "macroevolution"? So a Green Warbler speciating into another Green Warbler is "macroevolution"? HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!
Ernst Mayr suggested an eminently more sensible definition - macroevolution occurs only at the level of genus or even higher (an idea he may have stolen from yours truly, btw).
Maybe not, but evidence from other branches of science do tell us how evolution occurs
Other branches of science tell us only how microevolutionary variations within a population occur - no more, no less.
"As can be noted from the listed principles, current evolutionary theory is predominantly oriented towards a genetic explanation of variation, and, except for some minor semantic modifications, this has not changed over the past seven or eight decades. Whatever lip service is paid to taking into account other factors than those traditionally accepted, we find that the theory, as presented in extant writings, concentrates on a limited set of evolutionary explananda, excluding the majority of those mentioned among the explanatory goals above. The theory performs well with regard to the issues it concentrates on, providing testable and abundantly confirmed predictions on the dynamics of genetic variation in evolving populations, on the gradual variation and adaptation of phenotypic traits, and on certain genetic features of speciation. If the explanation would stop here, no controversy would exist. But it has become habitual in evolutionary biology to take population genetics as the privileged type of explanation of all evolutionary phenomena, thereby negating the fact that, on the one hand, not all of its predictions can be confirmed under all circumstances, and, on the other hand, a wealth of evolutionary phenomena remains excluded. For instance, the theory largely avoids the question of how the complex organizations of organismal structure, physiology, development or behavior ” whose variation it describes ” actually arise in evolution, and it also provides no adequate means for including factors that are not part of the population genetic framework, such as developmental, systems theoretical, ecological or cultural influences."
Gerd Muller, “Why an extended evolutionary synthesis is necessary.”
Evolutionary Theorist Concedes: Evolution Largely Avoids Biggest Questions of Biological Origins | Evolution News
as more evidence is discovered we we can understand more and more about how it occurred in the past.
Nonsense. You are evo-extrapolating into the realms of evo-fantasy. There is no way of testing the theory that observed microevolutions can account for the fossil record.
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1058 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-22-2019 3:17 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1086 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-28-2019 1:00 AM Dredge has replied
 Message 1107 by caffeine, posted 05-29-2019 2:16 PM Dredge has replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 92 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1082 of 1385 (853495)
05-28-2019 12:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1062 by Phat
05-22-2019 10:45 PM


Re: Progressive Creation
Thugpreacha writes:
I consider myself only as a Cosmological Creationist in that I believe that the universe was created by a supreme intelligence
I can appreciate your point of view. I believe creation is so mysterious that I don't try and break it down into something that can be explained. For example, the fossil record can give us a good idea of the history of life on earth, but as for explaining how it happened, I have no idea and I'm happy to accept it as a divine mystery. As for scientific attempts to explain it - forget it; it's a waste of time - all you end up with is dud science like neo-Darwinism.
Biblical creationism never made much logical sense to me, but I dont reject it 100% due to the fact that so many people whom I otherwise respect DO in fact believe it
The Biblical creation account won't make sense if one reads it literally. The pre-Adamic history of life is presented in symbolic language - because creation is a series of miracles and a literal description it's not important or relevant to the relationship between God and man (which is what the Bible is all about).
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1062 by Phat, posted 05-22-2019 10:45 PM Phat has not replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 92 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1083 of 1385 (853496)
05-28-2019 12:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1064 by PaulK
05-23-2019 1:16 AM


Re: The Evidence Screams For Validation
PaulK writes:
The evidence does not reveal any convenient boundaries or limits that would restrict evolution to the Creationist “kinds”.
Er, except the evidence of thousands of years of animal and plant breeding by humans, who have tried every trick in the book (include unnatural techniques like inbreeding) to change the morphology of various "kinds". No one has yet managed to produce anything even close to the macroevolution required by the Darwinian story.
Even if we reject the “transitional fossil” label for the more descriptive “anatomical intermediate” we do have many such fossils and they do support the idea of evolutionary transitions
You forgot to mention that fossils tell us nothing about HOW evolution proceeded. Fossils don't tell us how Fossil A came to be replaced by Fossil B. Some creations (like me) also accept that “evolutionary transitions” have occurred, but they don’t accept the Darwinian explanations for such transitions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1064 by PaulK, posted 05-23-2019 1:16 AM PaulK has not replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 92 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1084 of 1385 (853497)
05-28-2019 12:47 AM
Reply to: Message 1059 by RAZD
05-22-2019 3:21 PM


Re: does a species from one genus evolve into a species from another genus ... yes
RAZD writes:
There is evidence of gradualism in the forminafera fossil record, and there is evidence of more rapid evolution and stasis (eg punk eek) in the fossil record. All known evolutionary processes.
Punk eek is a "known" evolutionary process"? HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!
You're dreaming - punk eek is no more "known" than aliens performing genetic engineering! Punk eek is just another evo bed-time story - a far-fetched hypothesis (born of desperation) that can't be tested - ie, a pseudo-scientific fantasy that Darwinists are happy to delude themselves with.
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1059 by RAZD, posted 05-22-2019 3:21 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1088 by RAZD, posted 05-28-2019 6:43 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 92 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1085 of 1385 (853498)
05-28-2019 12:54 AM
Reply to: Message 1065 by RAZD
05-23-2019 6:46 AM


Re: The Evidence Screams For Validation
RAZD writes:
It really doesn't matter to me what one believes, as long as it is both logically consistent and consistent with the available evidence
If that were true, you would have accepted my "aliens" theory, which is clearly scientifically superior to the nineteenth-century evolution story you can't let go of.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1065 by RAZD, posted 05-23-2019 6:46 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1089 by RAZD, posted 05-28-2019 6:53 AM Dredge has replied
 Message 1091 by ringo, posted 05-28-2019 11:57 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 92 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1087 of 1385 (853500)
05-28-2019 1:12 AM
Reply to: Message 1076 by edge
05-27-2019 10:04 AM


Re: YEC vs OEC
edge writes:
I submit that your 'aliens theory' is not a scientific theory but is still just a belief.
In fact, I would say that it is a 'belief' that you do not really believe.
As a self-described "scientifically trained person" you should know that a scientific theory has nothing to do with personal belief.
Okay, at last, this is your actual belief. Why did you not just say this from the beginning.
I did - weeks ago. Do try and pay attention.
Why all the smokescreen about aliens? Are you admitting to trollism?
No smokescreen. My best scientific explanation for the fossil record is my excellent "aliens" theory. However, it is not my personal belief. You seem to think the "best scientific explanation" must also be a personal belief.
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1076 by edge, posted 05-27-2019 10:04 AM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1090 by edge, posted 05-28-2019 9:23 AM Dredge has replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 92 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1092 of 1385 (853565)
05-29-2019 3:47 AM
Reply to: Message 1053 by Tanypteryx
05-22-2019 12:26 PM


Re: does a species from one genus evolve into a species from another genus ... yes
Tanypteryx writes:
Dredge writes:
Gunter Bechly considers the fossil record to be "saturated" - meaning, we have enough fossil evidence now to conclude that the record is complete in a general sense.
Do you have a reference for where he says this?
"Gnter Bechly: Rich Fossil Record Says No to Insect Evolution
Posted on March 11, , 2019
On this episode of ID the Future, Dr. Gnter Bechly, paleoentomologist and former curator for amber and fossil insects for the State Museum of Natural History in Stuttgart, Germany, talks with host Andrew McDiarmid about evidence for macroevolution among insects. The fossil record is “saturated,” Bechly says. By that he doesn’t mean there aren’t new fossil forms to discover. Bechly himself has discovered several. He means we have an extensive enough sampling to confidently discern the major patterns of change and stasis in the history of life. And it shows no sign of insect evolution. It shows no transition from marine arthropods to terrestrial insects, none from wingless insects to winged insects, and no gradual evolution to insects (such as beetles and butterflies) that go through a metamorphosis that includes a pupal stage. And evidence for common ancestry is either contradictory or missing. In short, Bechly argues, the insect fossil record is much better explained by intelligent design than blind evolution."
Gnter Bechly: Rich Fossil Record Says No to Insect Evolution | ID the Future

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1053 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-22-2019 12:26 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1112 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-30-2019 12:06 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 92 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1093 of 1385 (853566)
05-29-2019 3:51 AM
Reply to: Message 1046 by Tanypteryx
05-22-2019 11:24 AM


Re: NO evidence of aliens
Tanyptyerx writes:
And that does not contradict what the fossils DO tell us.
What do the fossils tell us?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1046 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-22-2019 11:24 AM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 92 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1094 of 1385 (853567)
05-29-2019 3:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1047 by Tanypteryx
05-22-2019 11:45 AM


Re: Progressive Creation and Aliens (oh my) - no predictive ability - take 2
Tanptyeryx writes:
Science has moved well beyond Darwinian evolution and I am unaware of anyone bothering to "confirm Darwinian evolution" today.
What a strange phenomenon - scientists en masse accepting and dogmatically preaching as a fact a claim that can’t ever be confirmed. I’m trying to think of another example of this in science, but I can’t. I smell a big, fat rat
Well, it is not evidence of anything, because insects DO NOT appear out of nowhere.
Right, so you know better than Gunter Bechly, a world-renowned paleontologist who specializes in insects? With all due respect, I’d say your knowledge of the paleontology of the origins of insects is rather limited (which is perfectly understandable - knowledge of the fossil history of insects is useless and irrelevant to a working biologist) and is probably based on the assumption that evidence for the evolutionary ancestors of insects exists.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1047 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-22-2019 11:45 AM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
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