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Author Topic:   What Benefits Are Only Available Through God?
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 286 of 438 (853543)
05-28-2019 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 282 by Faith
05-28-2019 3:42 PM


Re: All praise Her Noodliness
But the Bible is full of history and geography and that does give it authenticity
No it isn't. Examples please. The Gospels also get a bit of the geography wrong. The old testament is fables and myths no geography or history at all.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by Faith, posted 05-28-2019 3:42 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 287 of 438 (853544)
05-28-2019 4:35 PM


Egypt, Ethiopia, Libya (Cush), Canaan, Dead Sea, Red Sea, Tigris and Euphrates, Lebanon, Assyria, Syria, Babylonia, Persia, just a few off the top of my head, and many more under biblical names; Artaxerxes, Nebuchadnezzar, Greece,Rome, Asia Minor, Spain (has a biblical name; it'll come to me), Cyprus, Pilate, Caesar Augustus, Tiberius etc etc etc,

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 Message 288 by Theodoric, posted 05-28-2019 4:56 PM Faith has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(3)
Message 288 of 438 (853547)
05-28-2019 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by Faith
05-28-2019 4:35 PM


Those are names. They are not geography or history. Geography would be discussing how they relate to each other. History would be mentioning actual historical facts that can be corroborated.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by Faith, posted 05-28-2019 4:35 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by foreveryoung, posted 05-29-2019 5:07 AM Theodoric has not replied
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foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 582 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 289 of 438 (853573)
05-29-2019 5:07 AM
Reply to: Message 288 by Theodoric
05-28-2019 4:56 PM


Assyria Babylon and Persia are given detailed interactions with Israel and judah. By your own definition, that is geography.
There certainly is loads of history concerning Israel. I know you dispute the bible's reckoning but you cannot prove it to be false much less a myth.
Edited by foreveryoung, : No reason given.

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 290 of 438 (853577)
05-29-2019 6:57 AM


Still no evidence of ANY benefits available only through God.
Once again we are near three hundred post without anyone presenting any evidence that relates to or supports the actual topic.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by Phat, posted 05-29-2019 8:32 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 291 of 438 (853578)
05-29-2019 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 290 by jar
05-29-2019 6:57 AM


Re: Still no evidence of ANY benefits available only through God.
Because evidence is not the only tool that supports the possible existence or presence of God as we understand Him.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by jar, posted 05-29-2019 6:57 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by Tangle, posted 05-29-2019 9:48 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 292 of 438 (853579)
05-29-2019 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by ringo
01-24-2017 10:44 AM


Re: One Top Many Paths
Ringo seems to think that it is impossible for the "Bible" to support the idea and belief in itself. I would challenge this assertion.
The proverbs of Solomon referred to a faithful king who would establish an eternal kingdom. A key characteristic of this ideal king was a fair treatment of the poor. This principle connects up with God’s promise to David that one of his descendants would establish a kingdom that lasts forever (2Sa 7:12 - 16). The problem was that Solomon and the rest of David’s descendants leading up to the time of Christ failed. Not one of them was the ideal king. Yet these disappointments only increased the expectation that someday a son of David would be the ideal king and establish an eternal kingdom. Isaiah 11:1 - 5 described that future king as the embodiment of Proverbs who is anointed with the Spirit of wisdom. The New Testament presents Jesus of Nazareth as that King. He is the Son of David who came ministering to the poor, and he was given the kingdom of David (Lk 1:32).
The king who judges the poor with truth, His throne will be established forever.
--~ ””Proverbs” ”29:14” ”NKJV””~
When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom.
13He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.
14I will be his Father, and he shall be My son. If he commits iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men and with the blows of the sons of men.
15But My mercy shall not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I removed from before you. 16And your house and your kingdom shall be established forever before you. Your throne shall be established forever.
~ ””II Samuel” ”7:12-16” ”NKJV””~
So we need to ask ourselves if Source is as important in philosophy and critical thought as is Content. Granted the Bible is a book of stories, parables, and human wisdom or the interpretation thereof. But is it more?
There shall come forth a Rod from the stem of Jesse, And a Branch shall grow out of his roots. 2The Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon Him, The Spirit of wisdom and understanding, The Spirit of counsel and might, The Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD.
3His delight is in the fear of the LORD, And He shall not judge by the sight of His eyes, Nor decide by the hearing of His ears;
4But with righteousness He shall judge the poor, And decide with equity for the meek of the earth; He shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, And with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked.
5Righteousness shall be the belt of His loins, And faithfulness the belt of His waist.”
~ ””Isaiah” ”11:1-5” ”NKJV””~
Some of the most amazing storylines throughout Scripture involve grace and forgiveness. Typically, when human reasoning would say that bitterness is warranted, God shows that his grace is enough. In this passage, David was extremely gracious regarding Saul. Rather than recount Saul’s shortcomings, David chose to honor him in this song. In spite of all that Saul had done to harm David, he did not hold these things against him following his death.
Likewise, through Jesus, God does not hold the sins of believers against them. When he sees them, he does not see the sin, but he sees Jesus. “As far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us” (Ps 103:12). In many respects, David prefigured the grace and forgiveness of Christ, foreshadowing Jesus’ gracious response to people through all time. Even while suffering under the hands of his oppressors, Jesus responded with grace and forgiveness rather than employing the powerful wrath of God (Mt 26:53).
“Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels?”
The deaths of Saul, Abner, and Ish-Bosheth removed major obstacles from David’s path to be king over Israel. David secured power in both the northern and southern territories as a result of Rimmon’s two merciless sons, Baanah and Rekab. After murdering Ish-Bosheth, these men expected a reward because they believed themselves to be agents acting on David’s behalf and the Lord. But they misread the situation, revealing that they did not know David’s values asking and were mistaken concerning the judgment and purposes of God. Ultimately, David understood that men like Baanah and Rekab could not grasp that the Lord redeems life and brings judgment on the wrongdoer.
Another example of this is found in Luke 9:51 - 56. Jesus was on his way to Jerusalem and opted to go through Samaria, where he did not receive a warm reception. The disciples were incensed, particularly James and John, so they asked Jesus if they should call down fire from heaven to consume the Samaritans. Jesus rebuked the disciples, whose understanding of retribution was mistaken. Jesus, like David, embraced even bitter rivals in love and forgiveness ” an embrace that he continues to offer to this day to those who deserve nothing other than retribution.
“Then the sons of Rimmon the Beerothite, Rechab, and Baanah, set out and came at about the heat of the day to the house of Ishbosheth, who was lying on his bed at noon. And they came there, all the way into the house, as though to get wheat, and they stabbed him in the stomach. Then Rechab and Baanah his brother escaped. For when they came into the house, he was lying on his bed in his bedroom; then they struck him and killed him, beheaded him and took his head, and were all night escaping through the plain. And they brought the head of Ishbosheth to David at Hebron, and said to the king, “Here is the head of Ishbosheth, the son of Saul your enemy, who sought your life; and the LORD has avenged my lord the king this day of Saul and his descendants.” But David answered Rechab and Baanah his brother, the sons of Rimmon the Beerothite, and said to them, “ As the LORD lives, who has redeemed my life from all adversity, when someone told me, saying, ”Look, Saul is dead,’ thinking to have brought good news, I arrested him and had him executed in Ziklag”the one who thought I would give him a reward for his news. How much more, when wicked men have killed a righteous person in his own house on his bed? Therefore, shall I not now require his blood at your hand and remove you from the earth?” So David commanded his young men, and they executed them, cut off their hands and feet, and hanged them by the pool in Hebron. But they took the head of Ishbosheth and buried it in the tomb of Abner in Hebron.~ ””II Samuel” ”4:5-12” ”NKJV””~
Thus I have shown that the stories in the Bible indeed can support the belief and ideology and hold their own with modern philosophical thought. Some of you folks seem to think that scientists are some sort of modern-day shamans who will unveil the truths of the universe to us. And yet you can't see the implications within the ancient stories of a living God interacting with humanity!
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by ringo, posted 01-24-2017 10:44 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 308 by ringo, posted 05-29-2019 12:18 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 293 of 438 (853582)
05-29-2019 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 291 by Phat
05-29-2019 8:32 AM


Re: Still no evidence of ANY benefits available only through God.
Phat writes:
Because evidence is not the only tool that supports the possible existence or presence of God as we understand Him.
Evidence is the only way we can understand anything.
Everything else is purely subjective. When it all bottoms out - all the argument, all the books and all the mental gymnastics - the only thing that actually matters to you is your personal belief, this 'revealed truth'. If you allow yourself to think that Jesus is real in your life there's nothing you can't rationalise away. Everything just washes over you and you carry on regardless.
If it was any belief other than a god belief it would be called a form of mental illness. The god delusion is only accepted as ok because it's been around so long and used to be universal. It will eventually be seen for what it is but it's taking a long time.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 294 of 438 (853584)
05-29-2019 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 288 by Theodoric
05-28-2019 4:56 PM


Both the historical and the geographical references are used in the Bible to point to BIBLICAL events, to place them in real time in real places, not secular historical events. That is, the mention of Augustus or Tiberius pins down the time of an event in the llfe of Jesus or the new Church. And the geographical references of course identify the fact that these things occurred in the real world we all know.
Christianity did occur in the real world and these facts are markers. This is not true of other religions which are mostly books of instruction in how to llve your llfe. They don't bother about time and place because they have no reason to. But the Bible is all about time and place, it's about real people God chose to carry Him to the rest of us, and it's particularly about Jesus Christ who is God Himself born as a human being in a particular time in a particular place so that He could llve for us and die for us as our Savior from sin.
You really don't need to bother to answer because you would only trash these simple facts, completely ignore the point and argue that if the terms aren't used to refer to events described in secular histories, forget it. Even the succession of the empires pointed to in the book of Daniel merely points to their succession. It's a historical fact but you will want something else, because you're a Christianity basher and won't appreciate that the mere reference to these historical and geographical facts authenticates the Bible.
Perhaps there are some intelligent people here who will, but I won't hold my breath.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by Theodoric, posted 05-28-2019 4:56 PM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 295 by Tangle, posted 05-29-2019 11:06 AM Faith has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 295 of 438 (853585)
05-29-2019 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 294 by Faith
05-29-2019 10:46 AM


Faith writes:
Christianity did occur in the real world and these facts are markers. This is not true of other religions which are mostly books of instruction in how to llve your llfe. They don't bother about time and place because they have no reason to.
Well that took at least 90 seconds to prove stupidly wrong.
quote:
The Prophet travelled from Mecca to Jerusalem in a single night on a strange winged creature called Buraq. From Jerusalem he ascended into heaven, where he met the earlier prophets, and eventually God.
It's almost as if you think that anything you type becomes true just by typing it. Very Trumpian.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by Faith, posted 05-29-2019 10:46 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by Faith, posted 05-29-2019 11:13 AM Tangle has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 296 of 438 (853587)
05-29-2019 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 295 by Tangle
05-29-2019 11:06 AM


Where on earth is that piece of hogwash written? The Bible does not indulge in such ridiculous tales, it's all grounded in known history in known places and it doesn't make use of mythical creatures. Sheesh. And it's still true: most of Islam is instruction, and any references to time and place are just puff, with no intrinsic value.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 297 of 438 (853588)
05-29-2019 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 291 by Phat
05-29-2019 8:32 AM


Re: Still no evidence of ANY benefits available only through God.
What is the Topic Phat?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 298 of 438 (853589)
05-29-2019 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 297 by jar
05-29-2019 11:16 AM


Re: Still no evidence of ANY benefits available only through God.
Benefits? Eternal llfe isn't enough?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by jar, posted 05-29-2019 11:16 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by jar, posted 05-29-2019 11:20 AM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 299 of 438 (853590)
05-29-2019 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 298 by Faith
05-29-2019 11:19 AM


Re: Still no evidence of ANY benefits available only through God.
There is no evidence of any eternal benefits Faith.
AbE:
In addition, eternal life is certainly a very common product marketed by many religions. The Bible also says that eternal damnation is only available through God.
Further the Christian product is little different than the Egyptian product or Muslim product or Norse product or Roman product or Greek product. At least there is some evidence for the Buddhist reincarnation product.
Edited by jar, : see AbE:

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by Faith, posted 05-29-2019 11:19 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 300 by Faith, posted 05-29-2019 11:39 AM jar has replied
 Message 302 by foreveryoung, posted 05-29-2019 12:06 PM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 300 of 438 (853592)
05-29-2019 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 299 by jar
05-29-2019 11:20 AM


Re: Still no evidence of ANY benefits available only through God.
Actually there are huge differences between religions, certainly between biblical religion and the rest of them, but you prefer to pretend there aren't.
The OP allows for lack of evidence, and the only evidence possible for the gift of eternal llfe is the testimony of Jesus. Jesus said He came to give us eternal llfe. You don't have to believe Him but that's the benefit He offers us. Take it or leave it.
The main focus of the OP is benefits in THIS llfe, however, and I believe there are many but again there wouldn't be any evidence. Answered prayer is a very exciting benefit for instance.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 299 by jar, posted 05-29-2019 11:20 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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