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Author Topic:   Some states protect women's rights
ringo
Member
Posts: 18329
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 61 of 286 (853538)
05-28-2019 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Faith
05-28-2019 3:33 PM


Re: No obligation to let others use your body.
Faith writes:

Actually I'd rather persuade people that they don't really want to kill their child than get the government involved in any of it.


So you agree that governments shouldn't try to ban abortion. Good for you.

Edited by ringo, : Fixed quote.


Izquierdo.

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 Message 59 by Faith, posted 05-28-2019 3:33 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7051
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


(1)
Message 62 of 286 (853542)
05-28-2019 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Faith
05-28-2019 3:34 PM


Re: No obligation to let others use your body.
A late term abortion is one performed between 21 and 24 weeks. Those are prior to viability. Aproximately 1% of abortions happen between 21 and 24 weeks. 24 weeks is point of viability, but survival rate is only about 50%.
Please provide examples of post 24 week abortions.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Faith, posted 05-28-2019 3:34 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Faith, posted 05-28-2019 4:44 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 63 of 286 (853545)
05-28-2019 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Theodoric
05-28-2019 4:07 PM


Re: No obligation to let others use your body.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_termination_of_pregnancy

Late termination of pregnancy,also known as postviability abortion

This message is a reply to:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 16320
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 64 of 286 (853546)
05-28-2019 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Faith
05-28-2019 4:44 PM


Re: No obligation to let others use your body.
quote:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_termination_of_pregnancy
Late termination of pregnancy,also known as postviability abortion


Let’s read a bit more, shall we ?


Late termination of pregnancy is more controversial than abortion in general because it results in the death of a fetus that is more developed and sometimes able to survive independently.


Late-term abortions are rare with about 1.3% of abortions taking place after the 21st week of pregnancy, and less than 1% occuring after 24 weeks.[4] Late-term abortions usually take place when the mother's health is at serious risk or when fatal abnormalities have been detected.[4]

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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7051
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 65 of 286 (853548)
05-28-2019 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by PaulK
05-28-2019 4:50 PM


Re: No obligation to let others use your body.
Gee Faith wouldn't cherry pick in order to make her argument actually seem plausible would she?
Yeah as always.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by PaulK, posted 05-28-2019 4:50 PM PaulK has not yet responded

  
Sarah Bellum
Member
Posts: 506
Joined: 05-04-2019


Message 66 of 286 (853550)
05-28-2019 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Chiroptera
05-27-2019 9:40 AM


Re: No obligation to let others use your body.
But what is the difference between allowing a one week old post-fetus to starve and aborting a 39-week gestation pre-child?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Chiroptera, posted 05-27-2019 9:40 AM Chiroptera has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Theodoric, posted 05-28-2019 9:58 PM Sarah Bellum has responded
 Message 73 by AZPaul3, posted 05-28-2019 10:20 PM Sarah Bellum has responded
 Message 76 by Chiroptera, posted 05-29-2019 9:38 AM Sarah Bellum has responded

  
Sarah Bellum
Member
Posts: 506
Joined: 05-04-2019


Message 67 of 286 (853551)
05-28-2019 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by ringo
05-27-2019 12:00 PM


Re: Is the fetus a human being? Is it a living creature that we allow you to kill?
It's the difference between forcing a person to undertake a medical procedure for the purpose of keeping Sandy (the adult human who will die if you don't undergo the procedure) and requiring a person to refrain from undertaking a medical procedure that would result in the death of a fetus.

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 Message 41 by ringo, posted 05-27-2019 12:00 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by ringo, posted 05-29-2019 3:17 PM Sarah Bellum has responded

  
Sarah Bellum
Member
Posts: 506
Joined: 05-04-2019


(1)
Message 68 of 286 (853552)
05-28-2019 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Dogmafood
05-27-2019 7:25 PM


Re: No obligation to let others use your body.
You say the procedure is "the last thing we wanted to do" and that just indicates the difficult ethical problems this entire issue involves.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Dogmafood, posted 05-27-2019 7:25 PM Dogmafood has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Faith, posted 05-28-2019 6:40 PM Sarah Bellum has responded
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Faith 
Suspended Member
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 69 of 286 (853553)
05-28-2019 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Sarah Bellum
05-28-2019 6:28 PM


Re: No obligation to let others use your body.
Prototypical's situation is the ONLY one that presents ANY difficult ethical problems to my mind. If you have a healthy fetus and a healthy mother there is no justification whatever for abortion. If the mother's llfe is threatened abortion may be necessary but that's an extremely rare sitaution. In the case of a sick baby as described by Prototypical I can see the reasonableness of choosing abortion in that case. That just about sums up all the possibilities.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Sarah Bellum
Member
Posts: 506
Joined: 05-04-2019


Message 70 of 286 (853554)
05-28-2019 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by AZPaul3
05-27-2019 9:26 PM


Re: Is the fetus a human being? Is it a living creature that we allow you to kill?
I'm not saying the law should prevent a woman from having an abortion, nor that the law should require someone to donate an organ. Those are both legal questions, not moral questions (and the latter makes one think of those doctors in communist China who can schedule heart transplants weeks in advance...)

But is there really no difference between allowing someone to keep a kidney and allowing someone to abort a 39-week gestation fetus?


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Sarah Bellum
Member
Posts: 506
Joined: 05-04-2019


Message 71 of 286 (853555)
05-28-2019 7:07 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Faith
05-28-2019 6:40 PM


Re: No obligation to let others use your body.
But here's where the reality meets the philosophical. Women have, from time to time, felt compelled to seek abortions in just those situations in which you see "no justification whatever" for abortion. The results, back in the day when abortion was illegal, were often horrific.

Putting aside the question of whether or not you think it is morally right for a woman to have an abortion in such a circumstance, what do you think the law should say about a woman going to a doctor and having the procedure done?


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 Message 69 by Faith, posted 05-28-2019 6:40 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7051
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


(1)
Message 72 of 286 (853558)
05-28-2019 9:58 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Sarah Bellum
05-28-2019 6:19 PM


Re: No obligation to let others use your body.
Do you have evidence of a 39 week child be aborted? Doesn't happen. Never happens. That would be a full term baby.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Sarah Bellum, posted 05-28-2019 6:19 PM Sarah Bellum has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Sarah Bellum, posted 06-02-2019 7:50 AM Theodoric has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5123
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 73 of 286 (853560)
05-28-2019 10:20 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Sarah Bellum
05-28-2019 6:19 PM


Re: No obligation to let others use your body.
Not a whole lot. Is that a real choice faced by real people?

Probably. Then the question is why?

Got any specific circumstances that could be examined?


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Sarah Bellum, posted 05-28-2019 6:19 PM Sarah Bellum has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by Sarah Bellum, posted 06-02-2019 8:10 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5123
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 74 of 286 (853561)
05-28-2019 10:31 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Faith
05-28-2019 6:40 PM


Re: No obligation to let others use your body.
If you have a healthy fetus and a healthy mother there is no justification whatever for abortion.

Except for the mother's desires. Her right to control her own personal physical integrity. Her personal liberty.

I understand that isn't a concept you seem able to support but to some of us that *is* the defining concept.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Faith, posted 05-28-2019 6:40 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Faith, posted 05-29-2019 11:31 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5123
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 75 of 286 (853562)
05-28-2019 11:15 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Sarah Bellum
05-28-2019 6:56 PM


Re: Is the fetus a human being? Is it a living creature that we allow you to kill?
But is there really no difference between allowing someone to keep a kidney and allowing someone to abort a 39-week gestation fetus?

We weren't talking about a 39-week abortion. That is at the extreme of the discussion and needs a separate treatment which I'm not wanting to do right now. Just the broader topic of abortion.

I have difficulty understanding those who cannot see this as a personal bodily integrity issue.

But as for a 39-week abortion, there is a reason Roe-v-Wade says what it says.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Sarah Bellum, posted 05-28-2019 6:56 PM Sarah Bellum has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Sarah Bellum, posted 06-02-2019 8:13 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
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