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Author Topic:   Some states protect women's rights
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 76 of 286 (853581)
05-29-2019 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by Sarah Bellum
05-28-2019 6:19 PM


Re: No obligation to let others use your body.
I'm having a difficult time understanding your question. I would have thought the answer would be clear from my earlier posts. In fact, the answer to your question is in the very post to which you are responding.

Added by edit:

I should be more specific and point out that the answer to the question is probably in the last paragraph of the post to which you're responding.

End of addition.

Is there something specific that's confusing you?

Edited by Chiroptera, : No reason given.


If this was a witch hunt, it found a lot of witches. -- David Cole, writing about the Mueller investigation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Sarah Bellum, posted 05-28-2019 6:19 PM Sarah Bellum has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Sarah Bellum, posted 06-02-2019 8:20 AM Chiroptera has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 77 of 286 (853591)
05-29-2019 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by AZPaul3
05-28-2019 10:31 PM


Re: No obligation to let others use your body.
If you have a healthy fetus and a healthy mother there is no justification whatever for abortion.

Except for the mother's desires. Her right to control her own personal physical integrity. Her personal liberty.

I understand that isn't a concept you seem able to support but to some of us that *is* the defining concept.

Yes, you absurdly and immorally put personal liberty above the llfe of another human being. Absurd and morally bankrupt. Our dependency on our parents doesn't stop in the womb you know. At any time they could declare their personal liberty from us and abandon us on a street corner to fend for ourselves. Or kill us. Some mothers have done that because their children got in the way of their personal freedom. We usually call them insane. Or murderers.

The way to avoid this conflict is to avoid getting pregnant. It's not impossible, but gosh, that too requires us to give up our liberty, doesn't it?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by AZPaul3, posted 05-28-2019 10:31 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by DrJones*, posted 05-29-2019 11:52 AM Faith has responded
 Message 79 by PaulK, posted 05-29-2019 11:57 AM Faith has responded
 Message 81 by ringo, posted 05-29-2019 12:02 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 88 by AZPaul3, posted 05-29-2019 2:50 PM Faith has responded

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2106
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 78 of 286 (853594)
05-29-2019 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Faith
05-29-2019 11:31 AM


Re: No obligation to let others use your body.
Yes, you absurdly and immorally put personal liberty above the llfe of another human being.

so you think the government should be able to force you to donate an organ to someone.

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Faith, posted 05-29-2019 11:31 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Faith, posted 05-29-2019 11:59 AM DrJones* has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16320
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 79 of 286 (853595)
05-29-2019 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Faith
05-29-2019 11:31 AM


Re: No obligation to let others use your body.
quote:

The way to avoid this conflict is to avoid getting pregnant. It's not impossible, but gosh, that too requires us to give up our liberty, doesn't it?

Tell that to a rape victim.

And, of course, this is why contraception is one of the best ways to fight abortion. Perhaps you should ask yourself why so many “pro-life” people are against that. (Maybe it will even help if I point out that the Catholic Church has a lot to do with that).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Faith, posted 05-29-2019 11:31 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Faith, posted 05-29-2019 12:04 PM PaulK has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 80 of 286 (853596)
05-29-2019 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by DrJones*
05-29-2019 11:52 AM


Re: No obligation to let others use your body.
This kind of specious reasoning is dspicable. The baby is growing inside the woman already, she isn't forced to put it there. There are lots of organ donors, my organ is not required of me, but the only choice if I don't want to carry a baby is to KILL it. Do you understand the difference between having a choice not to supply something to someone else, and KILLING someone? I am responsible for the **** growing inside me, I am NOT responsible for a person's **** independent of me no matter what demented logic you follow.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by DrJones*, posted 05-29-2019 11:52 AM DrJones* has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by DrJones*, posted 05-29-2019 12:14 PM Faith has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18329
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 81 of 286 (853598)
05-29-2019 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Faith
05-29-2019 11:31 AM


Re: No obligation to let others use your body.
Faith writes:

Yes, you absurdly and immorally put personal liberty above the llfe of another human being.


It's not another human being. Even you have agreed that abortion is not murder, haven't you?

Izquierdo.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Faith, posted 05-29-2019 11:31 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 82 of 286 (853599)
05-29-2019 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by PaulK
05-29-2019 11:57 AM


Re: No obligation to let others use your body.
Oh golly gosh. Yes dear, there is the rare case of a pregnancy due to rape where she can't control it. Always we make the rare case the standard around here don't we? Nevertheless in the general case I was talking about there is hypothetically the option of not getting pregnant. Sheesh the illogic around here could kill a person.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by PaulK, posted 05-29-2019 11:57 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by PaulK, posted 05-29-2019 12:19 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2106
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 83 of 286 (853605)
05-29-2019 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Faith
05-29-2019 11:59 AM


Re: No obligation to let others use your body.
There are lots of organ donors,

but not enough, there are always waiting lists. So under your thinking the government should be able to just grab people off the street and start pulling out organs. After all you believe that personal liberty should be overridden to preserve life.

The baby is growing inside the woman already, she isn't forced to put it there

not all pregnancies are by choice.

Edited by DrJones*, : No reason given.


It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Faith, posted 05-29-2019 11:59 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Faith, posted 05-29-2019 12:18 PM DrJones* has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 84 of 286 (853608)
05-29-2019 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by DrJones*
05-29-2019 12:14 PM


Re: No obligation to let others use your body.
Fine. If you don't give your kidney to save someone it's the same as killing an unborn baby. Fine, have it your way all you nut cases that want to do nothing but obscure the point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by DrJones*, posted 05-29-2019 12:14 PM DrJones* has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by DrJones*, posted 05-29-2019 12:20 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16320
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 85 of 286 (853609)
05-29-2019 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Faith
05-29-2019 12:04 PM


Re: No obligation to let others use your body.
quote:

Oh golly gosh. Yes dear, there is the rare case of a pregnancy due to rape where she can't control it. Always we make the rare case the standard around here don't we

No we don’t. But it is a case that must be considered and a case where many feel that exceptions should be allowed.

So, are you going to say that women who get pregnant by rape should be forced to go through with the pregnancy despite the obvious stress ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Faith, posted 05-29-2019 12:04 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2106
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 86 of 286 (853610)
05-29-2019 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Faith
05-29-2019 12:18 PM


Re: No obligation to let others use your body.
If you don't give your kidney to save someone it's the same as killing an unborn baby

if that someone can't live without a kidney, yes, after all a life is a life according to you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Faith, posted 05-29-2019 12:18 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Dogmafood
Member
Posts: 1814
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


(4)
Message 87 of 286 (853614)
05-29-2019 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Sarah Bellum
05-28-2019 6:28 PM


Re: No obligation to let others use your body.
You say the procedure is "the last thing we wanted to do" and that just indicates the difficult ethical problems this entire issue involves.

The most difficult that I have ever had to face but ethical problems are personal in nature. Our ethics are a summary of the choices we make and having options restricted by legislation does not make one a more ethical person.

I don't know what to say really. I am grateful, so to speak, for having had the option of the grim choice as it was the least detestable of all. The moral calculus that brought me to that conclusion belongs to me alone. Isn't that what ethical behaviour is all about?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Sarah Bellum, posted 05-28-2019 6:28 PM Sarah Bellum has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Sarah Bellum, posted 06-02-2019 8:21 AM Dogmafood has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5123
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 88 of 286 (853628)
05-29-2019 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Faith
05-29-2019 11:31 AM


Re: No obligation to let others use your body.
Yes, you absurdly and immorally put personal liberty above the life of another human being.

Yes. I do.

That is the heart of this problem. To some of us personal liberty is worth a human life. Some of us are willing to give up our *own* lives to protect personal liberty from the excesses of intrusive politics. This is not just life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness we're talking about but right down to the most basic of rights to control one’s own body.

If I decide it is in my best interests to not get cut open and donate my kidney and let the poor person on the other gurney die that is my decision, my decision alone. If I decide it is in my best interests to abort a 6-week fetus, for whatever myriad of reasons I use, that is my decision, my decision alone.

You, your politics, your church, the legislature, majority opinion of the society, *no one* has any right to interfere in those decisions.

The pursuit of liberty does not stop at the ballot box.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Faith, posted 05-29-2019 11:31 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Faith, posted 05-29-2019 4:38 PM AZPaul3 has responded
 Message 94 by Faith, posted 05-30-2019 5:44 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18329
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 89 of 286 (853629)
05-29-2019 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Sarah Bellum
05-28-2019 6:25 PM


Re: Is the fetus a human being? Is it a living creature that we allow you to kill?
Sarah Bellum writes:

It's the difference between forcing a person to undertake a medical procedure for the purpose of keeping Sandy (the adult human who will die if you don't undergo the procedure) and requiring a person to refrain from undertaking a medical procedure that would result in the death of a fetus.


Either way, it's dictating healthcare to the person.

Izquierdo.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Sarah Bellum, posted 05-28-2019 6:25 PM Sarah Bellum has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by Sarah Bellum, posted 06-30-2019 3:53 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 90 of 286 (853632)
05-29-2019 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by AZPaul3
05-29-2019 2:50 PM


Re: No obligation to let others use your body.
When the "right" to kill a human being is called "liberty" I know the country has gone to Hell in a handbasket.

(I won't even venture to comment on the reversals and duplicity that attend the other discussions going on here today, but this is one day when everything here is so sickeningly upside down, with lles, llbel, illogic, partisan slime throwing called reasoning and worse it's hard to believe.)

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by AZPaul3, posted 05-29-2019 2:50 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by ringo, posted 05-29-2019 4:49 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 93 by AZPaul3, posted 05-29-2019 5:53 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
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