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Author Topic:   Any practical use for Universal Common Ancestor?
Taq
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Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 861 of 1385 (852268)
05-08-2019 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 857 by Faith
05-08-2019 5:43 PM


Re: Restating the question
Faith writes:
The Creator doesn't "change" anything. He made the creature and all its DNA perfectly designed to reproduce it.
Call it whatever you like. The main point is that the human and chimp genomes differ by 40 million differences with the rest being the same. If being different causes diseases, as you claim, then God couldn't create species with these differences because they would die from disease.
Therefore, you have to be wrong about differences only causing disease.
This makes not one iota of sense to me.
That's your cognitive dissonance getting in the way.

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Taq
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Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 865 of 1385 (852273)
05-08-2019 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 860 by Faith
05-08-2019 5:53 PM


Re: Restating the question
Faith writes:
I'm sure I don't get what Taq is trying to say, none of it makes any sense. What is the point of the differences between the genomes at all?
It's not that hard to figure out.
Let's start with creation and a very simple model. God creates humans and chimps separately, and the genetic differences are responsible for their physical differences. We find the genetic difference responsible for our larger brains, and the corresponding area in the chimp genome. The sequences look like this:
*
human  AACGAGGGATGAGGT
chimp  AACGAGGGTTGAGGT
I put a little asterisk above the difference. This is the difference responsible for our bigger brains.
Now, if that same difference was caused by a mutation, would that be a beneficial mutation? Can you come up with any reason why that mutation could not occur?
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

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Taq
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Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 907 of 1385 (852355)
05-09-2019 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 880 by Dredge
05-08-2019 7:24 PM


Re: Progressive Creation - no predictive ability - take 2
Dredge writes:
That's one possible explanation . but one that can't be tested and confirmed.
It can be confirmed by both the pattern of physical differences and similarities and the same for genetic differences and similarities. We find a correlation between the nested hierarchies in both sets of data which confirms the mechanisms of vertical inheritance and random mutations.
All things considered the evidence can be
best explained by genetic engineering performed by aliens.
Why would aliens produce a nested hierarchy? You need to explain this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 880 by Dredge, posted 05-08-2019 7:24 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
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Taq
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Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 990 of 1385 (852542)
05-13-2019 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 939 by Dredge
05-11-2019 6:29 PM


Re: Another useful application of evolutionary theory
Dredge writes:
My aliens are as invisible as your macroevolution.
Macroevolution is seen in every comparison of genomes:
"Outside of a time machine, Darwin could hardly have imagined a more powerful data set than comparative genomics to confirm his theory."--Francis Collins, "Faith and the Human Genome"
We can also see it in the fossil record:
Covering your eyes doesn't make the evidence go away.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 939 by Dredge, posted 05-11-2019 6:29 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1026 by Dredge, posted 05-21-2019 9:48 PM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
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Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 1019 of 1385 (852625)
05-14-2019 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1007 by Dredge
05-13-2019 9:51 PM


Re: Progressive Creation
Dredge writes:
All I need to know is that genetic engineering has the potential to reshape the genome such that massive changes in morphology are possible.
You need to know more than that. You need to explain the following, and this is just a good start:
1. The twin nested hierarchies of morphology and genetics.
2. The difference in divergence between exons and introns.
3. The pattern of transition, transversion, and CpG substitution mutations.
4. Orthologous endogenous retroviruses and transposon insertions, and the pattern of divergence between the LTR's of a single ERV.
Those are just a few off the top of my head. There is no reason why we would expect to see genetic engineering produce these patterns.
Believing that your puny mechanisms of evolutionary can turn a rodent into a whale is grand delusion.
Only people who lack scientific evidence to support their claims stoop to calling people deluded. If you had evidence you would present it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1007 by Dredge, posted 05-13-2019 9:51 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(4)
Message 1068 of 1385 (853209)
05-23-2019 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1034 by Dredge
05-21-2019 11:12 PM


Re: does a species from one genus evolve into a species from another genus ... yes
Dredge writes:
Oh, and I suppose all those gaps and sudden appearances in the fossil record are predicted by ToE as well!
They absolutely were.
quote:
Only a small portion of the world has been geologically explored. Only organic beings of certain classes can be preserved in a fossil condition, at least in any great number. Widely ranging species vary most, and varieties are often at first local, -- both causes rendering the discovery of intermediate links less likely. Local varieties will not spread into other and distant regions until they are considerably modified and improved; and when they do spread, if discovered in a geological formation, they will appear as if suddenly created there, and will be simply classed as new species. [Charles Darwin, Origin of Species 1st Edition 1859, p.439]
quote:
The third argument is more direct: transitions are often found in the fossil record. Preserved transitions are not common”and should not be, according to our understanding of evolution (see next section) but they are not entirely wanting, as creationists often claim. . .
I count myself among the evolutionists who argue for a jerky, or episodic, rather than a smoothly gradual, pace of change. In 1972 my colleague Niles Eldredge and I developed the theory of punctuated equilibrium. We argued that two outstanding facts of the fossil record”geologically "sudden" origin of new species and failure to change thereafter (stasis)”reflect the predictions of evolutionary theory, not the imperfections of the fossil record.
--Stephen Jay Gould, "Evolution as Fact and Theory"
The "incomplete fossil record" excuse is running out of puff -
You haven't shown that the fossil record is incomplete since you haven't dug up every fossil there is. The only thing that you can show to be incomplete is the search for fossils.

This message is a reply to:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 1108 of 1385 (853627)
05-29-2019 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1105 by Faith
05-29-2019 11:07 AM


Re: Another useful application of evolutionary theory
Faith writes:
That's just a bunch of wishful hogwash. Even a hundred generations of microevolution would deplete the genetic variability to the point that no further variation could occur down that llne of variation,
Every individual in every generation is born with mutations which increases genetic variation. This is an observable fact.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1105 by Faith, posted 05-29-2019 11:07 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1109 by Dredge, posted 05-30-2019 12:25 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1129 of 1385 (853753)
05-31-2019 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1109 by Dredge
05-30-2019 12:25 AM


Re: Another useful application of evolutionary theory
Dredge writes:
It's also an observable fact that after thousands of years of animal and plant breeding, using even unnatural methods such as inbreeding to produce gross mutations, it never occurred to anyone that plants and animals could be breed to became something radically different to the original species ...
Inbreeding reduces genetic variation, for a start. Also, please explain why genetic variation accumulated over just a few thousand years in bottlenecked populations should be equivalent to the genetic variation accumulated in wild populations over 100's of millions of years.

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Taq
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Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1131 of 1385 (853773)
05-31-2019 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1121 by Dredge
05-31-2019 12:24 AM


Re: aliens-did-it is not a scientific theory
Dredge writes:
The mechanism is genetic engineering. Ever heard of it? It produces observed, repeatable macroevolutions.
Genetic engineering does not produce a phylogenetic signal. Evolution does. What do we see? A phylogenetic signal.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1121 by Dredge, posted 05-31-2019 12:24 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 1162 of 1385 (853996)
06-03-2019 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1147 by Dredge
06-02-2019 3:13 AM


Re: aliens-did-it is not a scientific theory
Dredge writes:
So, you can demonstrate this it's impossible for genetic engineering to produuce a phylogenetic signal?
I can show that genetic engineering can produce any pattern of similarities and differences. Evolution can only produce one pattern of similarities and differences, and that is the pattern we see. That makes evolution the better explanation.
Btw, is a phylogeneitic signal detectable in the fossil record?
Absolutely. The same pattern of similarities and differences seen in living species is also seen in the fossil record.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

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Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 1163 of 1385 (853997)
06-03-2019 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 1139 by Dredge
06-02-2019 1:07 AM


Re: Another useful application of evolutionary theory
Dredge writes:
I talking about what fossils tell us - they tell us WHAT happened, not HOW it happened. Science cannot determine HOW the history of life unfolded; it can only guess.
That's completely false. The matching phylogenies at the morphological and genetic level tell us the how: evolutionary mechanisms. Phylogenies are the fingerprint of random mutations, selection, drift, speciation, and vertical inheritance, and that fingerprint is all over the distribution of characteristics in living and fossil species as well as the genomes of living species.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1139 by Dredge, posted 06-02-2019 1:07 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1183 by Dredge, posted 06-05-2019 2:22 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 1164 of 1385 (853998)
06-03-2019 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1155 by Dredge
06-03-2019 1:19 AM


Re: YEC vs OEC
Dredge writes:
I believe my “aliens” theory is the best SCIENTIFIC explanation for the fossil record,
You would need to show how your theory predicts the observed distribution of characteristics. You have yet to do that. The theory of evolution does predict what features should and should not be found together and why, but your theory does not.

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Taq
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Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 1180 of 1385 (854055)
06-04-2019 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1167 by Dredge
06-04-2019 2:23 AM


Re: Another useful application of evolutionary theory
Dredge writes:
Btw, you haven’t answered my question: If the THEORY of evolution is “true”, why don’t you call it the FACT of evolution?
You are demonstrating that you don't understand what theories or facts are.
quote:
Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts do not go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's, but apples did not suspend themselves in mid-air, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from apelike ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other, yet to be discovered.
--Stephen Jay Gould, "Evolution as Fact and Theory"
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Sorry, but you haven’t told me anything useful in terms of a breeding program. If you have an amniote, for example, how do you breed it to evolve into a synapsid?
Synapsids are amniotes.
Dog breeders have experimented with inbreeding simply to see what will happen and what weird mutations they can come up with. In other words, they have used every trick in the book to change the morphology of dogs - and what they have found is, the further genetics are pushed the more harmful mutations arise, thus limiting how far breeding can go. This fact contradicts your Darwinist fantasy that a dog can eventually be bred into a non-dog.
The one trick they haven't tried is to allow dogs to breed in large populations over millions of years to get rid of the harmful mutations and accumulate much more genetic variation. Humans and chimps differ by 2% at the genetic level. Can you show me two dog breeds that differ by 2% at the genetic level?
You live in a dream world. Try and bred a dog into a non-dog and see what happens - you will end in the same genetic “dead-end” that thousands of years of dog breeding has - ie, a drastically less-diverse population riddled with harmful mutations. All you will end up “evolving” is sick, weak, unfit dogs!
All descendants of dogs will be dogs. What can change is the variety and number of dog species. If you don't understand this very simple concept, then you can't critique evolution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1167 by Dredge, posted 06-04-2019 2:23 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 1191 of 1385 (854157)
06-05-2019 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 1183 by Dredge
06-05-2019 2:22 AM


Re: Another useful application of evolutionary theory
Dredge writes:
Ah, so if you know how macroevolution occurs, you shouldn't have any trouble telling me how you would go about breeding a bird from a reptile, for example ...
Due to the contingent nature of evolutionary histories, we shouldn't observe modern reptiles evolving into birds. If you understood how evolution works, you would already know this.
or a non-fruit fly from a fruit fly.
All descendants of fruit flies will be fruit flies. Again, if you understood how evolution works you would already know this. Chimps and humans are both primates, as was our common ancestor. Bears and humans are both mammals, as was our common ancestor. Trout and humans are both vertebrates, as was our common ancestor. You don't evolve away from your ancestry.
What about a double-cell organism from a single-cell organism?
Already happened:
quote:
Boraas (1983) reported the induction of multicellularity in a strain of Chlorella pyrenoidosa (since reclassified as C. vulgaris) by predation. He was growing the unicellular green alga in the first stage of a two stage continuous culture system as for food for a flagellate predator, Ochromonas sp., that was growing in the second stage. Due to the failure of a pump, flagellates washed back into the first stage. Within five days a colonial form of the Chlorella appeared. It rapidly came to dominate the culture. The colony size ranged from 4 cells to 32 cells. Eventually it stabilized at 8 cells. This colonial form has persisted in culture for about a decade. The new form has been keyed out using a number of algal taxonomic keys. They key out now as being in the genus Coelosphaerium, which is in a different family from Chlorella.
Observed Instances of Speciation
You stated in message 1162 that "genetic engineering can produce any pattern of similarities and differences" - I presume this includes the same pattern that evolution produces. So it's possible that, what looks to you like the "fingerprint" of evolution in the fossil record, could actually be the fingerprint of genetic engineering.
When you see evidence that is consistent with a natural mechanism you don't invent a supernatural mechanism that just happens to look exactly like the natural mechanism.
quote:
For, be it observed, the exception in limine to the evidence which we are about to consider, does not question that natural selection may not be able to do all that Mr. Darwin ascribes to it: it merely objects to his interpretation of the facts, because it maintains that these facts might equally well be ascribed to intelligent design. And so undoubtedly they might, if we were all childish enough to rush into a supernatural explanation whenever a natural explanation is found sufficient to account for the facts. Once admit the glaringly illogical principle that we may assume the operation of higher causes where the operation of lower ones is sufficient to explain the observed phenomena, and all our science and all our philosophy are scattered to the winds. For the law of logic which Sir William Hamilton called the law of parsimony”or the law which forbids us to assume the operation of higher causes when lower ones are found sufficient to explain the observed effects”this law constitutes the only logical barrier between science and superstition. For it is manifest that it is always possible to give a hypothetical explanation of any phenomenon whatever, by referring it immediately to the intelligence of some supernatural agent; so that the only difference between the logic of science and the logic of superstition consists in science recognising a validity in the law of parsimony which superstition disregards.
--George Romanes, "The Scientific Evidences of Organic Evolution", 1882
The Project Gutenberg eBook of The Scientific Evidences of Organic Evolution, by George J. Romanes, M.A., LL.D., F.R.S.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1183 by Dredge, posted 06-05-2019 2:22 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(3)
Message 1194 of 1385 (854196)
06-05-2019 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1184 by Dredge
06-05-2019 2:38 AM


Re: YEC vs OEC
Dredge writes:
Okay, let's simplify things - imagine that I decided to ditch my theory of aliens and like you, accepted Darwinism as the best scientific explanation for the fossil record. Although I accept Darwinism as the best scientific theory, I still wouldn't believe it, because
A. Accepting a scientific explanation as the best available at the time is not contingent on believing that explanation is the truth. For staters, I would be aware that the "best scientific explanation" today may not be the "best scientific explanation" tomorrow.
B. I believe that a certain non-scientific explanation for the fossil record is a better explanation than the scientific one
C. I believe the non-scientific explanation in B is the truth.
Reality doesn't care what you believe. It's kind of strange that way. Once you realize that reality does not conform to what you believe, perhaps you could start having a science based discussion with us.
If you lack the intelligence and imagination and scientific aptitude and humility to accept my teachings, whose fault is that?
If you had intelligence, imagination, and scientific aptitude you could show us a genetic comparison between two dog breeds that shows the same genetic divergence as that seen between humans and chimps, which is about 2%. You claim that dog breeding should be able to produce the genetic differences seen between separate species, so let's see you back it up. Where's the data?

This message is a reply to:
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