Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Some states protect women's rights
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 35 of 286 (853366)
05-26-2019 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Sarah Bellum
05-26-2019 6:28 PM


Re: Is the fetus a human being? Is it a living creature that we allow you to kill?
that is not the same as thinking we ought to force that person to undergo surgery to extract their kidney against their will.
Is this different from forcing an unwilling person to carry an unwanted fetus to term. Is the invasion of bodily sovereignty any different in these two scenarios?

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Sarah Bellum, posted 05-26-2019 6:28 PM Sarah Bellum has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Sarah Bellum, posted 05-27-2019 8:20 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 52 of 286 (853481)
05-27-2019 9:26 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Sarah Bellum
05-27-2019 8:20 AM


Re: Is the fetus a human being? Is it a living creature that we allow you to kill?
I would say, yes, there is a definite difference. Childbirth is a natural procedure that women have been going through for quite a long time. Your mother went through it, probably.
Removing a kidney requires a deliberate act. It won't happen if you just sit around and do nothing.
Aren’t they the same ethically?
Aren't these both examples of others determining what you can do with your body? In one case, to keep a wanted part in, in the other, to have an unwanted part removed. But the operator of the body, the soul that has to face the consequences that result from that action, does not get to decide?
As for what my mother went through, I don't know. I don't remember being there.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Sarah Bellum, posted 05-27-2019 8:20 AM Sarah Bellum has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Faith, posted 05-27-2019 9:37 PM AZPaul3 has replied
 Message 70 by Sarah Bellum, posted 05-28-2019 6:56 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 55 of 286 (853485)
05-27-2019 10:00 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Faith
05-27-2019 9:37 PM


Re: Is the fetus a human being? Is it a living creature that we allow you to kill?
In the case of childbirth, what "others" are "determining what you can do with your body?"
Your political party as influenced by your church.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Faith, posted 05-27-2019 9:37 PM Faith has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 73 of 286 (853560)
05-28-2019 10:20 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Sarah Bellum
05-28-2019 6:19 PM


Re: No obligation to let others use your body.
Not a whole lot. Is that a real choice faced by real people?
Probably. Then the question is why?
Got any specific circumstances that could be examined?

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Sarah Bellum, posted 05-28-2019 6:19 PM Sarah Bellum has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by Sarah Bellum, posted 06-02-2019 8:10 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 74 of 286 (853561)
05-28-2019 10:31 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Faith
05-28-2019 6:40 PM


Re: No obligation to let others use your body.
If you have a healthy fetus and a healthy mother there is no justification whatever for abortion.
Except for the mother's desires. Her right to control her own personal physical integrity. Her personal liberty.
I understand that isn't a concept you seem able to support but to some of us that *is* the defining concept.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Faith, posted 05-28-2019 6:40 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Faith, posted 05-29-2019 11:31 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 75 of 286 (853562)
05-28-2019 11:15 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Sarah Bellum
05-28-2019 6:56 PM


Re: Is the fetus a human being? Is it a living creature that we allow you to kill?
But is there really no difference between allowing someone to keep a kidney and allowing someone to abort a 39-week gestation fetus?
We weren't talking about a 39-week abortion. That is at the extreme of the discussion and needs a separate treatment which I'm not wanting to do right now. Just the broader topic of abortion.
I have difficulty understanding those who cannot see this as a personal bodily integrity issue.
But as for a 39-week abortion, there is a reason Roe-v-Wade says what it says.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Sarah Bellum, posted 05-28-2019 6:56 PM Sarah Bellum has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Sarah Bellum, posted 06-02-2019 8:13 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 88 of 286 (853628)
05-29-2019 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Faith
05-29-2019 11:31 AM


Re: No obligation to let others use your body.
Yes, you absurdly and immorally put personal liberty above the life of another human being.
Yes. I do.
That is the heart of this problem. To some of us personal liberty is worth a human life. Some of us are willing to give up our *own* lives to protect personal liberty from the excesses of intrusive politics. This is not just life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness we're talking about but right down to the most basic of rights to control one’s own body.
If I decide it is in my best interests to not get cut open and donate my kidney and let the poor person on the other gurney die that is my decision, my decision alone. If I decide it is in my best interests to abort a 6-week fetus, for whatever myriad of reasons I use, that is my decision, my decision alone.
You, your politics, your church, the legislature, majority opinion of the society, *no one* has any right to interfere in those decisions.
The pursuit of liberty does not stop at the ballot box.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Faith, posted 05-29-2019 11:31 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Faith, posted 05-29-2019 4:38 PM AZPaul3 has replied
 Message 94 by Faith, posted 05-30-2019 5:44 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(4)
Message 93 of 286 (853637)
05-29-2019 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Faith
05-29-2019 4:38 PM


Re: No obligation to let others use your body.
but this is one day when everything here is so sickeningly upside down, with lles, llbel, illogic, partisan slime throwing called reasoning and worse it's hard to believe
No, Just a different tack on a relative morality.
You put a high value on the human life. This is good. This is as it should be.
But there are still some matters that are of greater value than a human life. Keeping the evil intentions of religion away from control over my body is one of them.
If you can order a unwilling woman to have a baby against her will then you will feel free to justify other intrusions. More encroachments. All gays must wear a big pink "P" branded into their foreheads. We have seen throughout history what a state can do to enslave the mind and the body. Wars have been fought over this issue.
And the only way to oppose those encroachments is to oppose every attempt the religiously-inspired state makes to control your body.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Faith, posted 05-29-2019 4:38 PM Faith has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(3)
Message 103 of 286 (853700)
05-30-2019 11:24 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Faith
05-30-2019 5:44 PM


Re: No obligation to let others use your body.
Which means you want to order an unwilling woman to carry an unwanted fetus to term?
And frankly I really don't give a flyin' flip what the founding fathers may think. They're all dead and this society has changed.
So has our morality. I'm not surprised you cannot see bodily integrity as a primary birthright of all human's. The morality has shifted from your medieval religious tripe to the reality of the human condition in our modern global society. And in the balance the choice of the woman wins, not the dictates of your church.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Faith, posted 05-30-2019 5:44 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Faith, posted 05-31-2019 1:15 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied
 Message 105 by Faith, posted 05-31-2019 1:17 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied
 Message 106 by Chiroptera, posted 05-31-2019 8:59 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied
 Message 111 by Faith, posted 05-31-2019 5:02 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(3)
Message 113 of 286 (853803)
05-31-2019 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Faith
05-31-2019 5:02 PM


Re: No obligation to let others use your body.
Abortion, or really, infanticide, leaving a newborn out exposed to the elements to die a painful death, was a common practice in all the pagan cultures Christianity eventually supplanted in the West.
You also used to burn women at the stake. The other atrocities your cult perpetrated across Euorpe are, indeed, well known. You cannot lecture anyone on morality.
while it was Christianity that civilized terrorized the West.
There. Fixed it for you.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Faith, posted 05-31-2019 5:02 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Faith, posted 05-31-2019 10:56 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 115 of 286 (853813)
05-31-2019 11:13 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by Faith
05-31-2019 10:56 PM


Re: No obligation to let others use your body.
I'm not a Roman Catholic. THEY murdered lots of people for rejecting their false version of Christianity, including millions of true Christians, which is MY group.
Oh. Guess I misunderstood. Sorry.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Faith, posted 05-31-2019 10:56 PM Faith has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 125 of 286 (853907)
06-02-2019 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by Sarah Bellum
06-02-2019 8:10 AM


Re: No obligation to let others use your body.
For specific circumstances, just think of partial-birth abortion.
No, Sarah. Not good enough.
39-week is a hell of a difference from 15-25 week partial-birth IDX.
Remember, at 39 weeks the kid is already demanding a cell phone and the car keys.
I can imagine a 39-week abortion but only under the most extreme circumstances like an accident that leaves the kid stillborn. Eminently justifiable for removal.
With that in mind...
Sarah writes:
But what is the difference between allowing a one week old post-fetus to starve and aborting a 39-week gestation pre-child?
The one is crying and pooping her pants, the other is already dead.
Unless you can come up with a reasonable scenario I don't think a 39-week abortion is a reality.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Sarah Bellum, posted 06-02-2019 8:10 AM Sarah Bellum has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by Theodoric, posted 06-03-2019 9:22 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied
 Message 150 by Sarah Bellum, posted 06-04-2019 3:22 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 126 of 286 (853909)
06-02-2019 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Sarah Bellum
06-02-2019 8:13 AM


Re: Is the fetus a human being? Is it a living creature that we allow you to kill?
But when you say "That is at the extreme of the discussion" you are saying that it is NOT entirely a body integrity issue.
That is why I cited Roe-v-Wade. SCOTUS has ruled the state has an interest to limiting abortion in the third trimester except in cases of the mother's health. They split the political hair.
Regardless. Late term abortions are rare ( <1% at 24+ weeks ) and, I can imagine, are contemplated for justifiable health reasons. I consider those bodily integrity decisions as well.
Unless you have some other data.
So, yes, the bodily integrity issue is still paramount even in late term situations.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Sarah Bellum, posted 06-02-2019 8:13 AM Sarah Bellum has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Theodoric, posted 06-03-2019 9:24 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied
 Message 215 by Sarah Bellum, posted 06-30-2019 3:55 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(3)
Message 135 of 286 (853938)
06-02-2019 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by xongsmith
06-02-2019 5:19 PM


Re: Amending the Constitution
That may be debatable. Depends on whether Idaho, Kentucky, Nebraska, Tennessee, and South Dakota, who originally voted to ratify, actually rescinded their ratifications.
We may still be 6 states short.
The constitutional issue is whether a state can actually do that. Is the first “Yes” final? Is a state allowed to change its mind prior to full ratification?
Since this is the ERA, whose main constituency is the female half of our population, I have a suspicion that the phrase “the right to change your mind” just took on a new dimension.
I did not just say that.
Then, there is the problem of the original ratification process and Congress' reluctance to extend it yet again. Republicans.
That timetable has already expired.
But we're still trying so your point is taken. There are indeed ongoing efforts to change the Constitution.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by xongsmith, posted 06-02-2019 5:19 PM xongsmith has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 155 of 286 (854121)
06-04-2019 9:26 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by Sarah Bellum
06-04-2019 3:22 PM


Re: No obligation to let others use your body.
When you say it's not a reality do you mean it doesn't happen, or that it shouldn't be permitted?
The former.
I haven't looked real hard cuz I'm lazy but I don't see in any of my meager research where a 39-week abortion was evidenced. Since as I said, at 39 weeks she's on the verge of asking about her education fund, I cannot fathom her mother allowing such a thing without the most extreme of circumstances.
Late term abortion, which is rare anyway, is a political strawman that lets the anti forces think they have standing to ban it all.
Your 39-week comment I took as support in that direction. Am I wrong?

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Sarah Bellum, posted 06-04-2019 3:22 PM Sarah Bellum has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by Theodoric, posted 06-04-2019 9:49 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied
 Message 161 by Sarah Bellum, posted 06-08-2019 3:18 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024