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Author | Topic: I Know That God Does Not Exist | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Actually it could be argued that God is the one making the claim. I AM that I Am.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
To be fair, however...you (ringo) are looking at the Bible from a critical thinking POV which mainstream apologetics and Christianity does not ascribe to. We can either conclude that they are willfully deceived and have an "agenda" (which is nothing more than telling the world that God has a plan and that Jesus is alive) or we can listen to your unenlightened common sense nonsense.
You can call me WRONG and have trumped up evidence to back the accusation up, but once the reality manifests on this planet...likely within a decade or so, global hatred of religions and specifically Christianity will increase and we will all be branded as delusional fantasy-driven fanatics out of touch with the secular status quo supported by logic, reason, and reality. It will be quite a show! See you on the other side...Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Tangle, to Dredge writes: I'll have a go at it. Granted I don't fully understand the reason for all of this unimaginable belief, but I do believe that something crazy is destined to happen... How do you explain a loving god that allows and has created death, disease, and suffering? God is unconcerned with the temporal death of the moment. We are nothing but clay to Him. The fact that a billion people starve to death is on us rather than on Him since it is not His job to play rescuer genie to a planet of bleeding heart whiners. We were and are given the basic choice to trust Him or not...and evidently many of you secular humanist educated liberal whiners(sorry I'm on a rant ) accuse this hypothetical God of being unloving because He has the audacity to ask you to trust in His eternal plan and not run around doing what YOU think He has an obligation to do to "serve and protect" existing humanity with all of its own problems. Granted that Stile has some good arguments for this God not existing. Granted there is no objective evidence. Perhaps God decreed that it must be that way because objective evidence would have led to a secular humanist minded unregenerated population to accept Him yet insist upon their own freedom to question and to doubt to remain in force.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Faith writes: We need to pray for you to get your energy back. The Rapture may happen in your lifetime. I suppose if it did, you could get "re-energized" and fixed in Heaven, but stop and think for a moment the implications of what in fact would occur if the Bible is the truth and literal. I found a discussion of these things at Got Questions but due to a computer glitch that recurs from time to time I lost it and now don't have the energy to go find it again. First, there will come a point in the near future when the occult will be fully revealed to the planet. All things hidden shall be revealed. The supernatural will become undeniable, in other words. Even science will know that something is amiss, though they likely will manifest as reprobates due to the fact that God will have foreknown all of those who were destined to believe and accept Him and all of those who were foreknown to reject and refuse Him. It will be like Judas. Once Judas was exposed as the bad apple in the bunch, he went and did his sin. Similarly...once society globally becomes aware of the reality of a supernatural realm (both good and bad) there will be a short period of a final opportunity to choose to accept Jesus Christ or deny Him. Then your rapture quite likely will occur, at which point the rest of society will fully manifest the intrinsic evil which they all along denied along with Jesus Christ. The end will then come quickly. Let the skeptics and critics brand me now as one of the loons who has fully lost my mind! Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I figured you would be one of the first to complain. If you go and continue to listen to heretics such as Richard Carrier (who has no clue that Jesus is real and will continue to be a tool of satan) than you will be fully responsible for your own destiny.
If nothing else, my rants will continue to enrage many, but I will rest easy knowing that I did my job. Perhaps a secular psychiatrist can help my deluded and senile mind. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: OK, you have me there. You are usually quite sensible and evidence-based. I can't rightfully attack you simply for being a skeptic. All I am suggesting is that there is, in my opinion, something to what the apologists say and have preached for many years. Perhaps one reason why all of this is so confusing is that we are in fact in a spiritual war and the bad guys don't want everyone finding out the truth.
If you could actually point out that what I say is nonsense, you might have something. Why can't you?ringo writes: For the record, I am a political moderate. I have no fond feelings for Donald Trump. At best, I think that God may have allowed him to become president only because the people voted that way and also because God allowed "bad kings" to be in power to achieve His overarching purpose in History. To be honest, I think that our economy is due for another major correction (similar to 2007) which will occur within 3-5 years. It may well be that this event will trigger some major cultural and sociological societal shifts. The nutters will be vindicated...but the world will soon tire of the nutters and seek to abolish all religious expression in favor of secular logic, reason, and reality to finally sanely prevail. Which would ordinarily be a good thing...unless the spiritual war is in fact real. You can emulate Trump and claim I have it wrong or you could actually show that my evidence is "trumped up". Why don't you do that? "... but once the reality manifests on this planet..."
ringo writes: I'm actually glad that one of us is thinking logically (despite being skeptical). I'm glad that you are a contrarian and a skeptic, ringo. It is what makes you who you are. Keep on keepin on... You can shove that nonsense. Until it actually happens, that story is no better than Goldilocks and the Three Bears.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: Why? Richard Carrier is in fact mentioned indirectly in scripture.
Seriously, are you not embarrassed to post drivel like that? You should be. 1 John 2:18-27 writes:
Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. 20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth. 22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also. 24 Let Truth Abide in You Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that He has promised us -- eternal life. 26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you. 27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.NKJV Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Take your preaching to a religious site. Some place where people want to here about your fantasies.
Better yet, simply ignore my posts. Its a bit like changing the channel on TV rather than legislating what people can watch. I could as esily tell you to take your opinions and beliefs to a secular humanist or atheist site, such as Internet Infidels. Until Percy says otherwise, EvC represents two (or more) diametrically opposed world views. And for the record, I still respect you, Theodoric...though more and more realize why I don't like you. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
while I will agree that I have no evidence, I would argue that I DO have reasoned argumentation.
And for the record, reasoned argumentation can involve both belief and science. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
This is in the faith & belief forums and serves also as part of my argument here.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
You guys are as nuts as I am!
Seriously, tho...*ponders how to defend argument*... First off, God owes humanity nothing. The fact that He even decided to work with us in allowing our free will to choose Him to remain intact is far nobler than simply taking over and making us obedient zombies. But lest this topic gets too far off the intentions of Stile, allow me to address him and reframe this discussion:************************************************************* Lets start at post#60, Stile...shall we? Stile writes: I think that I understand your position. You basically argue that if we rationally search for "God" (as popularly defined/described) and we use all rational tools and methodologies at our disposal and we don't find anything, we can logically and honestly use your conclusion. Am I right so far?
If we are going to define God to be the sun, then I would retract my statement. I can no longer say that I know God does not exist because the sun does exist and God is a bunch of chemical reactions in a ball of flaming gas that most certainly does exist. I would be wrong... and the search for God would be over. However, if someone does not accept such a definition and thinks that God is something more than the sun, something more along the lines of the popular definition of our times... then my statement still stands. I know that God does not exist. Stile writes: Yes. A pre-requisite is to be as honest as possible. Moving along...
I think it does stand up, although it does hinge very much on a strict definition of "how we know things" which comes from holding a personal priority on rationality and epistemology. ( honesty is kind of assumed as a priority in any sort of academic thought experiment, I would think?)Stile writes: Sounds reasonable.
I also think that the definitions I've provided do match the general usage of "knowing things" that we use every day.And I think that those who deny that my statement is acceptable are simply equivocating on the term "know" so that it means some sort of absolute-truth-sense for this statement... but those same people do understand that the term "know" does not include that same absolute-truth-sense when they use it in everyday language for other non-God ideas. Stile writes: OK. Keep in mind, however, that my agreement with your methodology presupposes that I won't be unduly influenced by my feelings. For example, in the past 3 times, I have attended a Spirit Filled Church, I have cried freely and unusually. No external cues led to this reaction. Bambi didn't die onscreen. Nobody whom I knew personally had died or was sick. Mom is still alive. My life, therefore, had no rational reasons why I would cry at all. I know myself and I know that I don't cry easily. So why am I crying so often lately??
When I started the thread, I was simply thinking of the popular idea held by our current society... That God is a rational concept of some entity that sits back and governs good things and helps out people who pray to Him and used to do grand miracles but hasn't felt like it since we started to monitor such things. But now I think it will hold for any and all conceivable definitions of God that do not include God being an inanimate object and do include God being at least "something more" than humans and relates somewhat to the popular idea held by our current society. And the proposal, of course, must be rational as well. stile writes: Yes, really. Why the heck am I crying so much? What is touching me?
As for God being something more than humans and relating to the popular idea currently held... if God is not such a thing... I think it is then honestly up to the individual asking to define what it is they mean when they use the word "God." I think I've attempted to make my definition of "God" as broad as possible, but I'm open to new ideas. After all, if "God" isn't what everyone uses the term as... how am I supposed to rationally frame a statement about it? This is simply obvious. The statement is a rational conclusion about the existence of God based upon the data we have and the rational analysis. How can we possibly make a rational conclusion about something if the thing in question isn't rational in the first place? If we are admitting that the definition of "God" is irrational in the first place, then there is no reason to say whether or not we know He exists because we all know that irrational ideas don't deserve any rational consideration in the first place. It should be noted that if we're going to define "God" as something like "that which cannot be defined" or "whatever God is if God actually exists" that these are irrational concepts and do not deserve any rational consideration. And, really, I do not understand an argument of the form "You can't say that because you are not considering the irrational!!!" ...um, really? Stile writes: Rationally I can agree with your logic. Emotionally is where my belief finds strength. Bada Boo Bada Bing, Go Figure!
I do not think that an as-yet-undiscovered-God is impossible. However, I do think the following: All rational concepts of God known to us have been tested and found to be false.It is impossible to test an irrational concept. It is impossible to test a concept that is as-yet-undiscovered. Therefore, we have investigated the idea to the best of our abilities.Therefore, we can rationally conclude that "I know God does not exist." Stile writes: My emotional catharsis is my primary subjective feeling that causes me to question my rationality.
I would ask for you to show me how any current data we do have is rationally indicating that God may exist in a certain place.Stile, responding to TrueCreation writes: You need to quit excluding your emotions from the data. More and more, I predict that people will be overwhelmed emotionally at future events. Of course many will jump right into religion without critically examining their beliefs....but I would argue that in times of crisis, belief becomes a better go-to crutch than logic, reason, and reality. Are you trying to say that in restricting my method to the rational, that I've excluded God from the get-go because God is necessarily irrational? That is, that God is necessarily an exception to the rules of nature? Therefore, I need to accept irrational ideas (your suggestions about using philosophical statements...) in order to "correctly" ponder this question? Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Phat writes:
while I will agree that I have no evidence, I would argue that I DO have reasoned argumentation.ringo writes: The problem here is that you want your paradigm to be the default standard...only because belief is in your opinion unevidenced. But if it really were unevidenced, there would not be as many fervent believers now, would there. I don't think you do. When you're shown that your reasoning is wrong, you always fall back on, "But I believe...."Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
As for the "Fall" This goes against what you believe about the children not being punished for the sins of the fathers, doesn't it? Actually, that's a good point. I'll have to think about that. #PropsChance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
dwise1 writes: I got it for free in my audible account and have it streaming through my Alexa as we speak. Richard Dawkins is doing the narrative. Even though I am a fundie and a believer in absolute truth I am open-minded enough to take your advice and will listen to this entire book in the next few days. I might make a post in the Book Nook. Audiobooks count, don't they? I recommend that you read the first few chapters of Dan Barker's book, godless, in which he tells his story of growing up a fundamentalist, becoming a minister, and losing his faith. As a traveling preacher, he visited many fundamentalist churches, all of which held black-and-white beliefs as he did at the time. But the thing about black-and-white beliefs is that you draw a sharply delineated line between those extremes. Every single church he visited drew such a line, but every line was different from the others. Compare them all together and you find a wide band that they disagreed on; dare we call that band a "grey area"? That led to him thinking, which eventually led to him becoming an atheist and then "America's Leading Atheist." Reality is grey. Black-and-white is just BS.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
The audacity is that humans think they and not God can determine what is right and what is wrong. We wouldn't even have this capability unless God had given us the awareness through the Tree of Knowledge. And now that we have it, we scoff at our maker and declare that He is a myth and that we are gods.
For the record, I am in no way suggesting that we should be zombies. We are humans, we have brains, minds, and a conscience and it is our responsibility to try and do our best. And I can see the argument that you make that we have to do it since no magic genie is gonna carry us to the promised land...(nor that Trump is the prophet of Profit! ) I believe that when you state that you believe that Jesus Christ is a myth you have essentially shot yourself in the foot. Use your internal discernment...it is (or should be) based on more than simple physical evidence. As for Dan Barker...he is interesting so far...but I think that he too made a wrong move, though God may actually use him in the future to "save" atheists. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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