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Author Topic:   What Benefits Are Only Available Through God?
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(4)
Message 317 of 438 (853722)
05-31-2019 10:02 AM


There's obviously no benefits from god, if there were everybody would believe in him. But there are benefits from a belief in god.
A close relative of mine will die in the next few days from an inoperable cancer. It's an ugly, painful and cruel death which in itself proves the absence of a loving god, but he does get comfort from his High Anglican belief and has the icons of his belief close to him - holy water and a little wooden cross. For a lot of people it does serve that purpose and is probably why it was necessary to invent the whole shebang.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

Replies to this message:
 Message 319 by Phat, posted 05-31-2019 10:05 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 321 by 1.61803, posted 05-31-2019 10:13 AM Tangle has not replied
 Message 333 by Phat, posted 05-31-2019 12:10 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 320 of 438 (853727)
05-31-2019 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 319 by Phat
05-31-2019 10:05 AM


Re: Oh What A Tangled Web We Weave...
Phat writes:
But the whole point is to allow us the freedom to question, doubt, and reject His benefits.
What benefits? I can't see any.
Why would God only help those who believed in Him and surrendered their own stubborn freedom to doubt and disagree?
Obviously if a loving god actually existed he'd love everybody not just those who had happened to have heard of him by a pure accident of birth or who rejected the idea because he gave us a brain that worked out that the whole idea was preposterous.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 319 by Phat, posted 05-31-2019 10:05 AM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(3)
Message 325 of 438 (853735)
05-31-2019 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 322 by GDR
05-31-2019 10:28 AM


GDR writes:
....one benefit being the fact that I exist
I believe that's called begging the question.
A very odd thing to me when visiting my dying relative yesterday was that his faith seemed to be growing stronger whilst his god was literally torturing him to death.
(The dosage of morphine necessary to stop his pain now would kill him and our fucked up, juvenile, religiously motivated health and judicial system is not allowed to do what we'd do for a dog in such circumstances.)

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by GDR, posted 05-31-2019 10:28 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 326 by GDR, posted 05-31-2019 11:28 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 338 of 438 (853758)
05-31-2019 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 326 by GDR
05-31-2019 11:28 AM


GDR writes:
Not really. The original question assumes the existence of an involved God ergo life itself is a benefit.
Well that's an example of a hypothetical point not really worth making.
Does he wish he had never been born?
At some points over the last few days I'm sure he has. But otherwise no. He certainly wishes for a quick and pain free death - which your god (and your religion) is not allowing.
The fact that he had the life that he did was a benefit.
Perhaps but that has nothing to do with god.
Yes, it is a fact that physical entropy results in suffering,
Right, so god is responsible for the benefit of life but physical entropy is responsible for suffering. Cute.
but also in the hearts of people like yourself I believe that there is a God given desire to do all that can be done to alleviate the suffering.
It's a human not a god given desire and its primitive religious thinking that's preventing us ending the suffering in a humane way.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 326 by GDR, posted 05-31-2019 11:28 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 344 by GDR, posted 06-01-2019 5:07 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 348 of 438 (853858)
06-01-2019 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 344 by GDR
06-01-2019 5:07 PM


GDR writes:
This is the way the world is, and sure, you can claim that a loving creator god could not have allowed for suffering. It's a good argument.
It's a conclusive argument and you know it. If for no other reason than your book tells you that your god has created at least two paradises that don't include suffering - Eden and Heaven.
However, it is my contention that entropy is a necessary feature of this world and that a loving deity has given us as humans the job of doing all that we can to mitigate suffering, whether the suffering is caused by humans or not
And surely you must know that's utter shite. It can't make any sense at all even to you. This is Hitch's “Once you assume a creator and a plan, it makes us objects in a cruel experiment, whereby we are created sick, and commanded to be well,” Just logical nonsense.
The last was a feature of Nazism.
The last feature of a lost argument. You'd better hope you don't finish up like my relative - begging to die.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 344 by GDR, posted 06-01-2019 5:07 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 350 by GDR, posted 06-01-2019 7:07 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 351 by Faith, posted 06-01-2019 7:15 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 357 of 438 (853886)
06-02-2019 2:58 AM
Reply to: Message 350 by GDR
06-01-2019 7:07 PM


GDR writes:
That is only conclusive if you require that I agree with an inerrantist understanding of the Bible.
You don't believe in heaven?
Or that your god could end suffering and death if he so wished?
Once again you are assuming a fundamentalist position. We are created with the freedom to make our own choices, good or evil - sick or well.
Both those statement are false.
We are obviously not free to choose to be sick or well and we do not have equal freedom to do good or evil (we are not born with equal genetic makeup, opportunity, propensity, environment or upbringing.)
I hope I don't too, and if it was legal at it would be a good thing for me in that case, but I still maintain that it would be a terrible thing overall for society.
Good for you but others can't be trusted? That's no way to run a society. Nor is it Christian.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 350 by GDR, posted 06-01-2019 7:07 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 359 by GDR, posted 06-02-2019 10:12 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 358 of 438 (853887)
06-02-2019 3:02 AM
Reply to: Message 351 by Faith
06-01-2019 7:15 PM


Re: This really needs to be learned
Faith writes:
We weren't "created sick," that's a common sort of ignorance though, which apparently described Hitch, despite his having a Christian brother. We were created perfect as was everything else. It was sin that brought sickness, suffering and death.
WE were not created perfect. WE are destined to suffer and die. The rest is a fairytale.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 351 by Faith, posted 06-01-2019 7:15 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 360 of 438 (853903)
06-02-2019 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 359 by GDR
06-02-2019 10:12 AM


GDR writes:
Not as our final destination. Going to a spiritual heaven is Platonism not Christianity.
The point, of course, is that god, according to your belief, can create a place without suffering. So why build one with?
Actually I don't believe that He can in this life. In this life it would require the removal of free will, and entropy seems to be a consequence of 'the flow of time. However, I do believe that suffering and death are not part of the next life with the renewal of all things.
So why not cut out the temporary suffering crap? What is the point of torturing people like this? And then claim to love them? It's all just a pointless lie.
We can go back again to choices. I might hope that it will be available for me at some point, but I contend that it is wrong for society so I would be making the selfish choice by campaigning to make it legal.
You're a giant bag of paradoxes! It's wrong but you'd campaign for it?
Interesting that all of a sudden you are the one to decide what is Christian.
I'm just as much a Christian as you are. I was baptised a Christian, I have Christian values and know what the book says about it. I just reject the god bit like you reject the Garden of Eden etc bit. I'm a cultural Christian.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 359 by GDR, posted 06-02-2019 10:12 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 362 by GDR, posted 06-02-2019 6:17 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 364 of 438 (853953)
06-03-2019 3:24 AM
Reply to: Message 362 by GDR
06-02-2019 6:17 PM


GDR writes:
Frankly I have no idea of whether or not God could have created existence from scratch where everyone would always make the loving choice.
He's god, of course he could.
But this insistence that the only way you can have choice is to also have evil and suffering is silly. But if it is the only way, why would a loving god do it to us? It makes him evil.
However, if He could and if He did, it would be a world of moral robots.
You realise that that makes heaven a place full of moral robots?
And, btw, what's so wrong with a place where evil does not exist?
Fair enough, but I don't feel that either one of us are an authority on what is Christian and what isn't. I completely accept that you are a cultural Christian although I don't see that baptism has anything to do with that.
In the version of Christianity that I belonged to, you can't get to heaven without being baptised. (In itself an evil idea of course.) So I guess I got lucky.
I don't see though that being a cultural Christian is the same thing as being a Christian. It seems to me that being a "Christian" does mean that one accepts some basic tenets of the faith, beyond the Golden Rule.
You say that neither of us are an authority on what a Christian is, then tell me that there are basic tenets. And, of course they will be your tenets not, say, Faith's or mine.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 362 by GDR, posted 06-02-2019 6:17 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 368 by GDR, posted 06-03-2019 1:26 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 369 of 438 (853981)
06-03-2019 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 368 by GDR
06-03-2019 1:26 PM


GDR writes:
and you know that how?
1. Omnipotence
2. Heaven
If good is the only choice then it isn't a choice.
It's not just good, it's also no evil, ie the concept of both doesn't exist. There's no logical difficulty with that state, nor does it contradict free will. (Which, in any case, only deals with good and evil and has nothing to say about suffering - famine, disaster, disease etc. Why does god need pancreatic cancer?)
In order to wind up with a world who freely choose the good or loving option, this world with it's freedom to choose is necessary.
That's just plain daft. Your god knows the outcome of any world he sets up, so he knows the winners and losers - why run the hunger games? He's evil isn't he?
I don't pretend to have any knowledge about heaven, which again I don't view as the final destination. The Biblical theme is the re-creation of all things.
Oh come on, that's just ducking the issue. If heaven isn't a place of perfection wtf is it?
This is another example of people putting church before God, not all that different than selling indulgences.
Actually it's just another case of people making shit up to justify their beliefs. Normal.
Firstly I'd suggest that one would have to believe in theism, and secondly, one would have to believe something about the Christian faith that separates it from basic humanism.
Sure, you can make up anything you like and it'll be true for you.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 368 by GDR, posted 06-03-2019 1:26 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 372 by GDR, posted 06-03-2019 5:33 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 373 of 438 (853995)
06-03-2019 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 372 by GDR
06-03-2019 5:33 PM


GDR writes:
The trouble is that you attack your understanding of Christianity.
I admit it's tricky remembering every believer's individual versions of what they call Christianity, but you know, heaven and omnipotence are generally safe territory.
In this case, my Christian belief is that a world of 'human caused' suffering and suffering that is the result of entropy were necessary to ultimately bring about a world with creatures who have chosen a world based on sacrificial love.
I'm forced to accept that you believe that gobbledegook, but it makes no rational sense at all.
I don't deny that thgis is the most difficult question for a Christian to deal with. I simply accept that it was necessary but I also see that God has given us intelligence and the will so that we can minimize the effect of suffering whether it be human caused or naturally caused.
Some consolation, we're in charge of fixing god's design bug?
his view that the future is not known by God
Polkinghome knows no more about this than your or I. But now your god is neither omnipotent nor all knowing. You seem to be praying to a lessor god and certainly not one that most Christians recognise.
I simply see heaven as God's universe or dimension. Beyond that, I don't have real answers for you.
So no paradise, no pearly gates etc. You just believe in people being nice. Welcome to humanism. If you cut out the unnecessary idolatry you'd save a lot of time.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 372 by GDR, posted 06-03-2019 5:33 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 374 by Theodoric, posted 06-04-2019 8:28 AM Tangle has not replied
 Message 379 by GDR, posted 06-04-2019 3:17 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 381 of 438 (854090)
06-04-2019 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 379 by GDR
06-04-2019 3:17 PM


GDR writes:
Religion is not a science. No one has absolute knowledge.
You could have fooled me. Every preacher I ever heard talks utter bollocks with absolute certainty.
But it's tough arguing with you, you don't just shift the goal posts, the goal posts only exist when and where you want them to be. And you play by rules that you only disclose after the game.
You're inventing a whole new religion loosely based on the Christian myth but totally dependent on your own personal interpretation and values. It's a weird thing to watch.
I am grateful though that it is at least liberal, non-exclusive and basically nice. Apart from your missionary activities your beliefs seem harmless and may even help some people.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 379 by GDR, posted 06-04-2019 3:17 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 383 by GDR, posted 06-04-2019 7:52 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 384 by Theodoric, posted 06-04-2019 9:52 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 388 of 438 (854143)
06-05-2019 2:59 AM
Reply to: Message 383 by GDR
06-04-2019 7:52 PM


GDR writes:
Actually my beliefs are pretty much mainstream, and even middle of the road Anglicanism.
Middle of the road Anglicanism is exactly what I mean by playing the game to your own rules. Anglicanism is as near to agnosticism as makes no difference. It's the ultimate pick and mix belief system loosely based around a Christian myth. You are able to fluff every traditional Christian position, from heaven to hell, from omnipotence to original sin.
Add a sprinkling of pseudo science and you can fudge every issue.
Look, I like Anglicans, they're basically harmless; they're not generally condemning anybody and their actual beliefs are liberal enough to live alongside other's beliefs and unbeliefs. I see Anglicanism as the pathway the sane Christians are taking towards secularism and humanism so I'm all for it. But it's still total bollox and a distraction from doing more useful stuff with your time.
I'm wondering which missionary activities you are referring to.
All of them.
IMHO I should be doing a lot more.
You're interfering with another culture's belief system. Stop it, it's patronising, evil and wrong - even if it's well meant.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 383 by GDR, posted 06-04-2019 7:52 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 390 by GDR, posted 06-05-2019 3:46 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 395 of 438 (854215)
06-05-2019 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 390 by GDR
06-05-2019 3:46 PM


GDR writes:
My point was that my beliefs are hardly unique.
I suspect that your belief is entirely unique. Actually I suspect all are. They're all personal variants within the 30,000 or so Christian mythologies. Your variant of a modernised liberal Christian belief system involves distorted science that you don't understand but jemmie into your model and compromising all the basic founding features of the belief itself. It's great, there's virtually nothing left of it but gentle Jesus meek and mild.
I listened to your ex-boss, Archbishop Rowan Williams a couple of years ago, I liked him a lot, he's an intelligent and thoughtful guy. Intelligent enough to give up the job too. I watched him struggle to answer a simple question about the existence of god and I could see that he was really struggling with it. Like I say, it's agnosticism bar the name.
Having lost that point you then move on to being critical of the Anglican church in general.
You haven't yet understood my point. And I'm not criticising the Anglican church. As religions go, it's one of the best. My actual preference is for the Quakers if I had to choose.
If you actually read through the articles of faith of the Anglican church you can see that Anglicans do actually have a relatively cohesive theology. In every service either the Nicene Creed or the Apostles creed is read out loud by the congregation.
Yeh I know all that. That's the official version but I know an awful lot of Anglicans and their actual beliefs are wide and mostly wishy-washy nice.
I am not concerned about their belief system.
Liar, liar pants on fire!
Of course you're doing wonderful things and trying to help people but the underlying agenda is conversion. Bringing the good news etc. My wife has a good friend who was an Anglican missionary in Africa, her and her husband now look back on their days there in horror of what they did. Maybe things have changed or your lot is very special - perhaps, but that's not the norm.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 390 by GDR, posted 06-05-2019 3:46 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 399 by GDR, posted 06-05-2019 7:50 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 396 of 438 (854217)
06-05-2019 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 394 by Phat
06-05-2019 5:03 PM


Phat writes:
It all sounds good and well if we were in fact not in a spiritual war
There's no spiritual war Phat. Atheist don't give a hoot what you nutters believe so long as you don't interfere with what others believe or don't believe.
and if God was but a myth. He isn't.
Says you.
You will never win this one.
It's only you fundies that thinks you're in a fight. I suppose it helps you to imagine an enemy. My side couldn't care less, belief is evaporating naturally, we're just getting on with life.
Even if you silence me,
Look, feel free to rant and rave away to your heart's content. No one cares. No one's trying to silence you are they?
I have to say, it sounds like you're trying to be a martyr.
God Himself will put you arrogant deceived and deluded (though well-meaning people in check for all eternity.
I'm sure you'll recover your mental balance soon - at least I hope so.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 394 by Phat, posted 06-05-2019 5:03 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 397 by Theodoric, posted 06-05-2019 6:04 PM Tangle has not replied

  
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