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Author Topic:   The Power/Reality Of Demons And Supernatural Evil.
Tangle
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Posts: 7091
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 256 of 307 (854281)
06-06-2019 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by Thugpreacha
06-06-2019 1:01 PM


Re: I'll Try And Answer Honestly...
Phat writes:

I don't get the context of your statement. Are you attempting humor, irony, or honest criticism? Clarification will help my

Over the last few weeks you've turned from a nice if overly-Christian guy a bit confused about life the universe and everything to an unlikeable, aggressively pious, bullshit preaching idiot.

That's all, no humour, no irony.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
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Theodoric
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Posts: 6667
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 257 of 307 (854282)
06-06-2019 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by Thugpreacha
06-06-2019 1:10 PM


Re: I'll Try And Answer Honestly...
But alas you and no one else has ever presented any contemporary, historical evidence for this christ character. There is no evidence he existed so why would I put any credence into stories about him.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 17413
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 258 of 307 (854283)
06-06-2019 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by Theodoric
06-06-2019 1:45 PM


Re: I'll Try And Answer Honestly...
What percentage of christians do you think have ever read their bible? I mean actually read it cover to cover.

I don't know. My mother read it through once a year or so, but I don't think she paid much attention to doctrine. My father certainly read it through and knew it well. (He may have had the same memory for trivia that I do. )

Not just taking verses out of context.

What bugs me is that they tend to think the "overall context" overrides the local context. That gives them leeway to impose their "overall" interpretation on anything.

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Thugpreacha
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Posts: 12996
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 259 of 307 (863064)
09-19-2019 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by ringo
06-06-2019 1:55 PM


Re: I'll Try And Answer Honestly...

Let me try and find the transcript for you, ringo.

ringo writes:

What bugs me is that they tend to think the "overall context" overrides the local context. That gives them leeway to impose their "overall" interpretation on anything.

Dont you have an overall interpretation of your own? Dont you often use scriptures to support your overall interpretation? I know jar has one. Im going to combine the two of you and call you Jingo!

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by ringo, posted 06-06-2019 1:55 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by ringo, posted 09-19-2019 5:46 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17413
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 260 of 307 (863084)
09-19-2019 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by Thugpreacha
09-19-2019 3:06 PM


Re: I'll Try And Answer Honestly...
Phat writes:

Dont you have an overall interpretation of your own?


No more than I have an overall interpretation of the library.

Phat writes:

Dont you often use scriptures to support your overall interpretation?


I do point out where the scriptures get it right and where believers get it wrong.

“Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing.”
-- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-19-2019 3:06 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-20-2019 3:45 PM ringo has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12996
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 261 of 307 (863127)
09-20-2019 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 260 by ringo
09-19-2019 5:46 PM


Re: I'll Try And Answer Honestly...
do point out where the scriptures get it right and where believers get it wrong.
Fair enough. And you know that it is right because....

A) The Book says so.
B) Logic, reason, and the reality of human morality say so.

IF B, then:
1) Humans don't need God. We have an intuitive knowledge of right and wrong without Him.
2) Occasionally, the Bible points out wisdom that we already intuitively knew.

IF 2, then:
a) We were born with knowledge of the right intuition.

Finally, if so, and if God is limited to a human derived book, where did we get our intuitive knowledge of what is right?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by ringo, posted 09-19-2019 5:46 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by jar, posted 09-20-2019 4:33 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply
 Message 266 by ringo, posted 09-20-2019 5:38 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31484
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 262 of 307 (863129)
09-20-2019 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by Thugpreacha
09-20-2019 3:45 PM


sheesh!
Phat writes:

ringo writes:

do point out where the scriptures get it right and where believers get it wrong.

Fair enough. And you know that it is right because....

A) The Book says so.
B) Logic, reason, and the reality of human morality say so.

Sheesh. Phat, there are no moral or ethical observations or recommendations or commandments in the Bible stories that did not also appear even earlier in other religions and social systems.

Study the writings of Mencius or Confucius or the sayings of the Buddha or Taoism or any of the thousands of religions that existed before Christianity.

Phat writes:

IF B, then:
1) Humans don't need God. We have an intuitive knowledge of right and wrong without Him.
2) Occasionally, the Bible points out wisdom that we already intuitively knew.

Almost. The Bible points out wisdom that was also common to many social systems. There is nothing "intuitive" about it; it evolved through experience and mythos that was passed down generation by generation, society by society.

Phat writes:

IF 2, then:
a) We were born with knowledge of the right intuition.

But the evidence show we are NOT born with any "right intuition™" but rather it develops over time and experience.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-20-2019 3:45 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by Faith, posted 09-20-2019 5:08 PM jar has responded

  
Faith
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Posts: 33290
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 263 of 307 (863130)
09-20-2019 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by jar
09-20-2019 4:33 PM


Re: sheesh!
Sheesh. Phat, there are no moral or ethical observations or recommendations or commandments in the Bible stories that did not also appear even earlier in other religions and social systems.

Study the writings of Mencius or Confucius or the sayings of the Buddha or Taoism or any of the thousands of religions that existed before Christianity

You could claim that Hammurabi's law preceded the Biblical commandments but all the rest you list didn't appear until the fifth to seventh centuries BC. Moses died in the 13th century BC. Christianity builds on the Old Testament.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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 Message 262 by jar, posted 09-20-2019 4:33 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by jar, posted 09-20-2019 5:19 PM Faith has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 31484
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 264 of 307 (863131)
09-20-2019 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by Faith
09-20-2019 5:08 PM


Re: sheesh!
The Buddha taught everything Jesus taught and hundreds of years before Jesus lived. The Hindu Vedas predate the Old Testament and many religious system predated the Garden of Eden.

The point is that there is nothing in the Bible that was not also developed independently in many other cultures.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Faith, posted 09-20-2019 5:08 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by Faith, posted 09-20-2019 5:31 PM jar has responded
 Message 270 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-24-2019 10:32 AM jar has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33290
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 265 of 307 (863132)
09-20-2019 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by jar
09-20-2019 5:19 PM


Re: sheesh!
There are plenty of MORAL similarities, which only shows that the universe is in fact governed by moral law, which both the Bible and Buddhism maintain. I'm not sure about the others but my guess would be they all acknowledge a universal moral law. But Christianity is about our salvation from the consequences of that moral law, which is absolutely unique.

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 Message 264 by jar, posted 09-20-2019 5:19 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by jar, posted 09-20-2019 5:54 PM Faith has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 17413
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 266 of 307 (863133)
09-20-2019 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by Thugpreacha
09-20-2019 3:45 PM


Re: I'll Try And Answer Honestly...
Phat writes:

And you know that it is right because....
A) The Book says so.
B) Logic, reason, and the reality of human morality say so.


Nothing is true because any book says it is. Sometimes, what a book says is true but we had to know it was true before the book was written.

Phat writes:

Humans don't need God.


God is not doing what humans need done, providing food, shelter, etc. Jesus acknowledged that when He told us to do it for each other.

Phat writes:

We have an intuitive knowledge of right and wrong without Him.


That's what Paul said: "For when the gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves...." (Romans 2:14).

Phat writes:

if so, and if God is limited to a human derived book, where did we get our intuitive knowledge of what is right?


It isn't so much what is "right". It's what works best in a social species. It's part of our evolved social behaviour.

“Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing.”
-- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-20-2019 3:45 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31484
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 267 of 307 (863134)
09-20-2019 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by Faith
09-20-2019 5:31 PM


Re: sheesh!
Faith writes:

But Christianity is about our salvation from the consequences of that moral law, which is absolutely unique.

Yup, the "get outta responsibility Christianity" is certainly easy to market, disgusting and pitiful.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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 Message 265 by Faith, posted 09-20-2019 5:31 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by Faith, posted 09-20-2019 6:34 PM jar has acknowledged this reply
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Faith
Member
Posts: 33290
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 268 of 307 (863136)
09-20-2019 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 267 by jar
09-20-2019 5:54 PM


Re: sheesh!
Since it is extremely rare, if it really occurs at all, for a person to be able to undo his own moral debt, or karma as it is called in some religions, and therefore has to go to that religion's version of Hell, or get reincarnated as a cockroach or other animal form through many lives until he finally figures out how to undo his karmic debt, I would think there might be a little gratitude for God's provision of a way out of all that.

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 Message 267 by jar, posted 09-20-2019 5:54 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

    
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12996
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 269 of 307 (863202)
09-22-2019 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 225 by jar
04-11-2014 10:19 AM


A Time To Agree & A Time To Disagree
What was needed was the participant that as not in agreement, the participant that can step up and say "Nonsense!!!".
If you were in Episcopal church reciting a liturgy or the BCP, it would be inappropriate for any random congregant to stop the service and voice their own opinion. At the time of prayer and communion, the agreement is shown through the act itself. There are always times to ask questions and voice opinion later.

True Believers are not an oxymoron but rather just a dead end.
They can be. They need not be. Im assuming that you label yourself a True Skeptic, or a True Questioner. Which is fine. Obviously God has other plans for you.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by jar, posted 04-11-2014 10:19 AM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12996
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


(1)
Message 270 of 307 (863306)
09-24-2019 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 264 by jar
09-20-2019 5:19 PM


Re: sheesh!
jar writes:

The Buddha taught everything Jesus taught and hundreds of years before Jesus lived.

Correction. Hundreds of years before Jesus was "made man". Jesus existed eternally and always will exist. The Buddha is not in the same category. You will argue that humans created all of the religions and all of the characters, but if you really are a Creedal Cradle Christian you would at least acknowledge that He existed long before Buddha.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by jar, posted 09-20-2019 5:19 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by jar, posted 09-24-2019 10:40 AM Thugpreacha has responded

  
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