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Author Topic:   Atheism - who knew?
Phat
Member
Posts: 15142
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 4 of 27 (854135)
06-05-2019 2:06 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by AZPaul3
06-05-2019 1:08 AM


Hypochristians?
AZPaul3 writes:

But in the good ol' US of A, we already know more than half our population are psychopaths. Christian psychopaths.

Do they have any evidence that psychopaths by definition are largely Christian? If so, I need to rethink my mental aberrations. I surely don't want to be labeled as mentally deranged.

Of course, the standard party line is that we are a "peculiar people" and that the Godly in Christ will suffer persecution.

AZPaul3 writes:

We (atheists) are treated as heretics. Traitors to their god. Lost souls controlled by demons walking in their sacred midst.

And yet if the evidence shows that psychopaths by definition are largely Christian, it is we who are the heretics to reality itself.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by AZPaul3, posted 06-05-2019 1:08 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by ringo, posted 06-05-2019 12:17 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15142
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 8 of 27 (854181)
06-05-2019 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by ringo
06-05-2019 12:17 PM


Re: Hypochristians?
I also elicit feedback from those close to me who know me the best---because they have perspective on my "normal" behavior. And so far I have passed their test...in fact they think I am becoming wiser and deeper.

Plus...as for you, the fact that you question whether faith and belief have any business in science shows which altar you have groveled at the whole time. Faith and I can agree... Boy will you guys be surprised one day soon!


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by ringo, posted 06-05-2019 12:17 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by ringo, posted 06-05-2019 12:52 PM Phat has responded
 Message 10 by Tanypteryx, posted 06-05-2019 1:07 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15142
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 11 of 27 (854189)
06-05-2019 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Tanypteryx
06-05-2019 1:07 PM


Re: Hypochristians?
LOL ...It will be surprising one way or another!

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Tanypteryx, posted 06-05-2019 1:07 PM Tanypteryx has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15142
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 12 of 27 (854190)
06-05-2019 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by ringo
06-05-2019 12:52 PM


Re: Hypochristians?
ringo writes:

You only accept the opinions of sycophants who agree with you. And you mock those of us who might possibly be more objective.

No, I don't. I listen to your arguments, don't I? And have done so for many years. Most Christians wouldn't bother.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by ringo, posted 06-05-2019 12:52 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by ringo, posted 06-05-2019 1:20 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15142
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 15 of 27 (854238)
06-06-2019 7:52 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by ringo
06-05-2019 1:20 PM


Re: Hypochristians?
ringo, addressing me writes:

You keep coming back with the same old same old nonsensical claims like, "People choose Hell."

And you know that this is nonsensical because...? Granted it is a belief but it makes sense within the belief paradigm. You insist that all of scripture and belief must conform to your paradigm and be discussed under those terms, which is why we never get anywhere. And if you explain to me why "I am wrong" I submit that you indeed are groveling at that altar. You act as if though we invented God rather than the other way around.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by ringo, posted 06-05-2019 1:20 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Theodoric, posted 06-06-2019 8:18 AM Phat has responded
 Message 20 by ringo, posted 06-06-2019 11:47 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15142
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 17 of 27 (854241)
06-06-2019 8:26 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Theodoric
06-06-2019 8:18 AM


Re: Hypochristians?
My evidence is admittedly not objective in the sense that it can be presented for critical review by a rainbow coalition of educated humanists. I would protest that such a group, likely composed largely of unbelievers or inclusivists, would itself be unable to appreciate the evidence if it somehow subjectively became known to them. They would write it off as a bad burrito or as authoritarian propaganda.

Does that make sense to you, or are you again annoyed by my insistence upon equal weight being given to exclusivity over inclusion?

We have evidence. You do not.
You cannot have evidence for an eternal Deity nor of a living character. All that you have is a structured argument over why the book should be interpreted critically and dispassionate versus as a belief.

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Theodoric, posted 06-06-2019 8:18 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by ringo, posted 06-06-2019 11:49 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15142
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 18 of 27 (854242)
06-06-2019 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by caffeine
06-06-2019 5:09 AM


Catholic vs Protestant
Tangle writes:

Most Catholics don't distrust Protestants. Most Catholics don't see any meaningful distinction between Catholics and Protestants. It's just something you inherit, like a surname.

Obviously, I'm talking from the perspective of someone who has always lived in very secular countries, but I don't think trying to view things from the perspective of a doctrinaire zealot helps to understand how most Catholics, Protestants, etc think.

In order to respond with a coherent reply to your post, I tried to do a bit of quick research into what Pope Francis professes to believe. Some of my fundy friends (uneducated though they are) are convinced that Pope Francis is likely the False Prophet of the book of Revelation. Despite you guys thinking I have drunk the kool-aid, I reject such a belief unless and until I arrive at the same conclusion through my own research. So here I go:

First Source:
Theology Of Pope Francis.
Notable quotes gleaned from article:

quote:
It is suggested that the pontificate of Pope Francis will be looked back upon as the "decisive moment in the history of the church in which the full force of the Second Vatican Council's reformist vision was finally realized". Francis returned to the Vatican II theme of ressourcement,(healing) making the church "more faithful to the original sources in scripture and early traditions than to the social, political, and cultural aspects of more recent times". In contrast to John Paul II who emphasized continuity with the past in Vatican II's teachings, and reconciling discontinuities, Francis' papacy from the start emphasized discontinuities: a "church that is poor and for the poor"; "disposal of the baroque trappings" in liturgical celebrations; revision of the institutional aspects of the church, and emphasizing mercy; the need to go into the margins of the world, with a bias toward appointing cardinals from the southern hemisphere; and implementing "one of the original proposals of Vatican II" in constituting a council of eight cardinals who would be above the Roman Curia.
I can see where conservative Biblical Literalists who involve themselves with conservative politics would be outraged at a Pope who claimed to be the merciful shepherd to the poor rather than a capitalist believer who sees money as a blessing from God and who cringes at the prospect of giving away all that they own to the poor.

quote:
Brendan Leahy, Bishop of Limerick, sees Francis' priorities as... formation of the clergy and laity to be capable of warming peoples' hearts, walking with them, dialoguing, and mending their brokenness; solidarity and collegiality; being in a permanent state of mission, with a maternal heart; and speaking up on social justice issues, for the improvement of society.

Protestant literalists would argue that original sin and an unregenerated heart make the vision of Pope Francis unrealistic and that he is, in fact, the false prophet because he seems so meek and Christlike yet has an underlying socialist agenda to redistribute the world's wealth.

quote:
According to the editors of a collection of essays on Francis, "the essence of Francis' theology is formed by a commitment to the poor and the marginalized, and unwillingness to pass moral judgment on others, a dislike of legalism and decrees from on high, and distrust of monolithic institutions.

That sums up a lot.
Personally, my jury is still out. ringo and I have argued before whether the messenger (Jesus Christ) is as important as the message (feeding the poor and thinking logically rather than dogmatically) I insist that both the message and the messenger come together as a package deal. It is one thing to allow yourself to be a freethinker doing good deeds and quite another to walk in the Spirit and fulfill Christ's mission on earth. (yes I know that sounds arrogant and exclusivist! )

Finally, to sum it all up--Catholics value educated Priests and Bishops, claiming that some backwoods hick from Arkansas cant simply get slain in "the spirit" and become a preacher of any authority. The counter-argument to that is that one can not learn the principles of God through any secular education...one only learns to be critical of organized religion and to imagine that God is a definable concept rather than a living reality.

Edited by Thugpreacha, : clarification


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by caffeine, posted 06-06-2019 5:09 AM caffeine has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Tangle, posted 06-06-2019 9:33 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 26 by dwise1, posted 06-06-2019 1:42 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15142
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 22 of 27 (854269)
06-06-2019 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by ringo
06-06-2019 11:47 AM


Re: Hypochristians?
quote:
BLIND ADVICE

People often make the mistake of giving simple answers to those who are in stressful situations. Such was the case with Job’s friend, Zophar. Regardless of Job’s insistence that he was innocent of wrongdoing (6:24; 9:21; 10:2, 7), this third companion began his analysis of Job’s situation based on the flawed assumption that his friend’s great torment was clear evidence of his hidden moral guilt. Citing God’s infinite wisdom, he intimated that not only was Job receiving his due penalty but that if the full depth of Job’s sin were revealed, it would be just for him to gain even greater punishment than he had thus far experienced (11:5 – 6). However, this insensitive friend missed his hypocrisy. Since no one can be judged faultless compared to the perfection of God, Zophar also merited the same penalty he thought Job deserved.

In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus used an exaggerated contrast to warn his followers of well-intentioned but damaging double standards. “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?... You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye” (Mt 7:3, 5). Scripture encourages believers to help and guide others as they deal with wrongdoing (Gal 6:2; Col 3:13, 16), but not before severe self-examination and dealing honestly with personal failures.

~ Job‬ ‭11:2-11‬ ‭NKJV‬‬~
“Should not the multitude of words be answered? And should a man full of talk be vindicated? Should your empty talk make men hold their peace? And when you mock, should no one rebuke you? For you have said, ‘My doctrine is pure, And I am clean in your eyes.’ But oh, that God would speak, And open His lips against you, That He would show you the secrets of wisdom! For they would double your prudence. Know therefore that God exacts from you Less than your iniquity deserves. “Can you search out the deep things of God? Can you find out the limits of the Almighty? They are higher than heaven— what can you do? Deeper than Sheol— what can you know? Their measure is longer than the earth And broader than the sea. “If He passes by, imprisons, and gathers to judgment, Then who can hinder Him? For He knows deceitful men; He sees wickedness also. Will He not then consider it?”
‭‭
Jesus, forgive us for those times when we feel smug and self-righteous. Please help us to remember that only you see the big picture. We want to relate to people as you would connect to them: with compassion and grace.


We both could learn a lesson about smugness and self-righteousness.
Does it make you feel good to insult me?
I am not trying to insult you. I am offending that arrogant spirit that runs you around. It has no power, however since it denies Christ. He will prevail, however. In the meantime, you and I can continue our debate/discussion.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by ringo, posted 06-06-2019 11:47 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Tangle, posted 06-06-2019 1:03 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 24 by Taq, posted 06-06-2019 1:15 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 25 by ringo, posted 06-06-2019 1:24 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15142
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 27 of 27 (854284)
06-06-2019 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by dwise1
06-06-2019 1:42 PM


Re: Catholic vs Protestant
I respect your thoughtful reply. I wanted to push a few buttons, and I achieved exactly that.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by dwise1, posted 06-06-2019 1:42 PM dwise1 has not yet responded

  
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