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Author Topic:   What Benefits Are Only Available Through God?
GDR
Member
Posts: 5094
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 383 of 438 (854120)
06-04-2019 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 381 by Tangle
06-04-2019 4:39 PM


Tangle writes:

You're inventing a whole new religion loosely based on the Christian myth but totally dependent on your own personal interpretation and values. It's a weird thing to watch.

Actually my beliefs are pretty much mainstream, and even middle of the road Anglicanism. The Christian scholar that has most influenced me is N T Wright I am also influenced as already mentioned by John Polinghorne for the way he integrates his scientific knowledge with his theology. Also from a philosophical satnd point I have very much gained form the Christian perspectives of CS Lewis. All of these scholars were/are CofE.

My beliefs are nothing out of the norm. I gave a talk, (I'm very much a lay person),at a men's breakfast a week ago, and it so happened that both my rector and my Bishop were there. What I said largely reflected the views I express here and they both agreed that we were all on the same page regarding our Christian beliefs.

Tangle writes:

You could have fooled me. Every preacher I ever heard talks utter bollocks with absolute certainty.

I think that is the way most people present their beliefs regardless of the subject. Interestingly enough, N T (Tom) Wright often says that about a third of what he says is wrong, but the problem being that he doesn't know which third it is.

Tangle writes:

But it's tough arguing with you, you don't just shift the goal posts, the goal posts only exist when and where you want them to be. And you play by rules that you only disclose after the game.

Actually I don't. The problem is that you set up a straw man that you argue against and then complain when my beliefs don't align with the straw man you are attacking.

Tangle writes:

I am grateful though that it is at least liberal, non-exclusive and basically nice. Apart from your missionary activities your beliefs seem harmless and may even help some people.

Thanks I think? I'm wondering which missionary activities you are referring to. IMHO I should be doing a lot more.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 381 by Tangle, posted 06-04-2019 4:39 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 388 by Tangle, posted 06-05-2019 2:59 AM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5094
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 387 of 438 (854138)
06-05-2019 2:22 AM
Reply to: Message 386 by ringo
06-04-2019 10:47 PM


ringo writes:

That doesn't change the fact that Jesus commanded people to love their neighbors.

Yes, but as I keep pointing out to you, commanding someone to love is very different than commanding someone not to kill. The killing is a physical action where as commanding someone to love is to command an emotional reaction.
ringo writes:

That doesn't change the fact that Jesus commanded people to love their neighbors.

I explained all that in the post you are responding to.
ringo writes:


On the contrary, there's no difference at all. The visitor eats the same food and sleeps in the same bed, regardless of your motivation.

Sure, that is true for whoever is getting the food and the bed, but it is you that brought up Matthew 25. The point that you were making was about the sheep and the goats. A big part of what made the sheep sheep was that they were doing it without thought of reward.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 386 by ringo, posted 06-04-2019 10:47 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 389 by ringo, posted 06-05-2019 11:41 AM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5094
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 390 of 438 (854199)
06-05-2019 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 388 by Tangle
06-05-2019 2:59 AM


You posted this in your previous post.
quote:
You're inventing a whole new religion loosely based on the Christian myth but totally dependent on your own personal interpretation and values.
I answered by saying this.
quote:
Actually my beliefs are pretty much mainstream, and even middle of the road Anglicanism. The Christian scholar that has most influenced me is N T Wright I am also influenced as already mentioned by John Polinghorne for the way he integrates his scientific knowledge with his theology. Also from a philosophical satnd point I have very much gained form the Christian perspectives of CS Lewis. All of these scholars were/are CofE.

My point was that my beliefs are hardly unique. Having lost that point you then move on to being critical of the Anglican church in general.

Tangle writes:

Middle of the road Anglicanism is exactly what I mean by playing the game to your own rules. Anglicanism is as near to agnosticism as makes no difference. It's the ultimate pick and mix belief system loosely based around a Christian myth. You are able to fluff every traditional Christian position, from heaven to hell, from omnipotence to original sin.

Add a sprinkling of pseudo science and you can fudge every issue.

If you actually read through the articles of faith of the Anglican church you can see that Anglicans do actually have a relatively cohesive theology. In every service either the Nicene Creed or the Apostles creed is read out loud by the congregation.

GDR writes:

I'm wondering which missionary activities you are referring to..

Tangle writes:

All of them.

Let's look at that idea.
The main mission I support is a home for young women in Kampala whose families have either been unable to support them or who have abandoned them. It provides a safe home, food, love and an education for these women. One recently graduated as a dental surgeon from a local university. Other eventually find work as hair dressers or teachers stc. If my wife and I stopped supporting this small mission of about 23 young women they would be unable to pay their rent, and it would fail. They would be out on the streets of Kampala. Do you really think I should give that up.
AbE - Incidentally, this mission is completely run by indigenous Ugandans although there is oversight by the local Anglican diocese.

We also support to a much smaller extent a mission that had set up a large farming co-operative in the South Sudan but unfortunately had to ,at least temporarily move into northern Uganda due to the war. Now what they are doing is a project called urban farming where they go around showing people how to set up stacks of burlap, soill and rocks, resulting in getting approximately 9 square yards of planting area for 1 square yard of surface area. I guess you think that would be another mission I should give up.

Our small church has been heavily involved is sponsoring Syrian refugee families for immigration to our community. We have been involved with both time and finances in supporting that. This afternoon my wife is going over with a simple gift of flowers and chocolates to help them celebrate the end of Ramadan. We'ed better give that up as well.

Tangle writes:

You're interfering with another culture's belief system. Stop it, it's patronising, evil and wrong - even if it's well meant.

I am not concerned about their belief system. The hope is that by what we are doing there will be some who instead of being destitute with virtually no hope, will be able to provide for themselves by being given an opportunity to do so. Also the hope is that by showing them love they will pass on that love to others and that our world becomes just a tiny bit better.

Edited by GDR, : No reason given.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 388 by Tangle, posted 06-05-2019 2:59 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 394 by Phat, posted 06-05-2019 5:03 PM GDR has not yet responded
 Message 395 by Tangle, posted 06-05-2019 5:07 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5094
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 398 of 438 (854223)
06-05-2019 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 389 by ringo
06-05-2019 11:41 AM


ringo writes:

But it isn't. If you obey the command to love, you don't have to be commanded not to kill.

No argument there.
ringo writes:

o. The command to love is a command to do loving actions.

Not really. The loving actions are symptoms of a loving heart.
ringo writes:

It isn't about rewards. The point of Matthew 25 is that God's will is about what you do, not about what you profess. It doesn't matter what your motivation or your attitude is; what matters is your physical actions.

Sure it doesn't matter to the person that is the beneficiary of the action. However, if the the individual in question is expecting something back in return for the loving action then it isn't really loving.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 389 by ringo, posted 06-05-2019 11:41 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 400 by ringo, posted 06-06-2019 11:39 AM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5094
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 399 of 438 (854227)
06-05-2019 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 395 by Tangle
06-05-2019 5:07 PM


Tangle writes:

Of course you're doing wonderful things and trying to help people but the underlying agenda is conversion. Bringing the good news etc. My wife has a good friend who was an Anglican missionary in Africa, her and her husband now look back on their days there in horror of what they did. Maybe things have changed or your lot is very special - perhaps, but that's not the norm.

The aim is not to convert but to serve. I just read a book called the Patient Fermant of the Early Church.

It was an interesting read. I think that the church in general is going largely back to that model. Instead of evangelizing the church's vocation is all about loving service. If because of seeing this loving service in action it causes people to inquire about Christian beliefs then sure you talk about it, but that isn't the point. The point is simply to model the Bible verse I use in my quote.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 395 by Tangle, posted 06-05-2019 5:07 PM Tangle has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 401 by Phat, posted 06-06-2019 2:33 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5094
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 403 of 438 (854295)
06-06-2019 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 400 by ringo
06-06-2019 11:39 AM


ringo writes:

That's an empty claim - and a self-serving one. You can always claim that you really, really, really do love but without the actions, there's no reason to think that you do. By their fruits ye shall know them.

I agree with that completely. None of us know what is in a person's heart, maybe not even our own

ringo writes:

That isn't what Jesus said. He didn't mention anything but the actual action. If you're motivated by wanting to "serve Jesus", that is not love.

..but He did make it clear that the actions were done simply out of care for others. Another good exapmle is the "Good Samaritan".

The one who loved his neighbour was the one of the "hated Samaritans" who took care of the individual and even paid for his accommodation. I suggest that from a Christian perspective if Jesus was telling that parable today, it would be the story of the "Good Muslim", as it is clear that this is a call on the hearts of all mankind and has nothing to do with our various doctrines.

In this example it is even more clear that the command to love is more than just action, it also includes being prepared to love at our own expense.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 400 by ringo, posted 06-06-2019 11:39 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 406 by ringo, posted 06-07-2019 11:46 AM GDR has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5094
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 404 of 438 (854297)
06-06-2019 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 401 by Phat
06-06-2019 2:33 PM


Re: Patience Is A Virtue
Thugpreacha writes:

I checked out the Kindle sample of that book. It is a good one! Patience is one of the fruits of the Spirit, and the early church was in no hurry to rush things. We all could learn from that today.


It was a good read. You are right about the patience thing, but part of that was that the idea of growing the church was secondary to the foolowing out of Jesus' command to love neighbour and enemy, even in the face of estrangement and sometimes death.

In so many cases today Christians have gotten so focused on personal salvation, to the point that what we are called to has been often made secondary. You are right. We should get back to the vocation that God calls His church to.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 401 by Phat, posted 06-06-2019 2:33 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
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