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Author Topic:   What Benefits Are Only Available Through God?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 407 of 438 (854364)
06-07-2019 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 405 by ringo
06-07-2019 11:38 AM


Re: Whom We Represent
Jesus would turn water into beer.
Not for an alcoholic he wouldn't. Context is everything. At the wedding, the alcohol(wine) was symbolic. The guests were not a bunch of homeless drunks. Jesus the character has more wisdom than ringo, apparently.
I need to pray for humility, though. I tend to get arrogant when I knock these secular fastballs out of the park. But then again, you guys see no Umpire. He is but a myth.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 405 by ringo, posted 06-07-2019 11:38 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 408 by Theodoric, posted 06-07-2019 5:50 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 409 by Tangle, posted 06-07-2019 6:50 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 410 by ringo, posted 06-07-2019 8:26 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 411 of 438 (854393)
06-08-2019 6:24 AM
Reply to: Message 410 by ringo
06-07-2019 8:26 PM


Re: Whom We Represent
ringo writes:
Why can't you just take the Bible for what it says? Why do you have to twist everything to fit your pre-conceived apologetic agenda? How can you expect anybody to believe that Jesus isn't made up when YOU make up most of what you say about Him?
It says that Jesus made wine. Period.
The problem here is that you don't believe that the many humans who wrote the Bible were inspired to record what they wrote. They quite obviously didn't have ulterior motives or preplanned agendas. And why is their writing cohesive amongst them?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 410 by ringo, posted 06-07-2019 8:26 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 414 by Theodoric, posted 06-08-2019 9:24 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 416 by ringo, posted 06-08-2019 11:53 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 412 of 438 (854394)
06-08-2019 6:27 AM
Reply to: Message 410 by ringo
06-07-2019 8:26 PM


Re: Whom We Represent
You get mad at me for being arrogant yet you attempt to insult me. I'll go heads up with any of you on an IQ test and likely beat you.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 410 by ringo, posted 06-07-2019 8:26 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 413 by Tangle, posted 06-08-2019 7:33 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 415 by Theodoric, posted 06-08-2019 9:25 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 417 by ringo, posted 06-08-2019 11:57 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 420 of 438 (858855)
07-24-2019 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 419 by Trump won
07-23-2019 8:26 PM


Phat writes:
You mention God, but never seem to have even pretended to have a relationship with Him. Or am I premature...
Stile writes:
I suppose part of my problem would be that I'm not sure how I could have identified such a relationship. Which, again, is kind of what this thread is about.(...)
I certainly believed God was real, and I certainly believed I was talking and sharing with God and He was comforting and walking with me.
I may have had a relationship with God, and now have found better sources for spiritual requirements.
Or, maybe I only thought I had a relationship with God, and I just didn't know I was mistaken.
When I became born again in 1993, there was most definitely a dramatic change. Critics could say I was brainwashed or emotionally predisposed to fitting in to the charismatic culture but everything I remember about the experience (which is ongoing, by the way) showed me that this path was something new...something I had never experienced before.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 419 by Trump won, posted 07-23-2019 8:26 PM Trump won has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 421 by Stile, posted 07-26-2019 10:06 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 422 of 438 (859788)
08-03-2019 2:26 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Stile
10-20-2009 3:08 PM


Re: Facts vs. Possibilities
Phat writes:
Stile writes:
I may have had a relationship with God, and now have found better sources for spiritual requirements.
Define better.
Stile writes:
Better Sources for Spiritual Requirements:
-those sources that grant me a more powerful sense of spiritual ideas (happiness, comfort, peace, solace...)
To me that's an error in thinking. We are not our own spirituality. (Unless you agree with the idea that ye shall be as gods.) One simply does not use spirituality to grant themselves anything. One common reason why people reject the concept of god is because they abhor anything or anyone overriding their own power and free will. Which is a valid complaint unless the larger context of spiritual war is involved, in which case we all arguably submit to something anyway.
I know you don't believe in spiritual warfare, and when I quote what Greg Boyd said about the subject you guys will claim that he made up the story(lied) simply to promote his book. But I'll post it anyway:
Dr.Gregory Boyd writes:
Greg’s story behind the writing of God at War: I encountered my first demonized person in 1988. As a pastor I was called to a home where a teenage girl had been acting like the Tasmanian Devil (as her mother put it). The moment I entered the home I knew what she meant. The house had been decimated by this woman’s 15 year old daughter. Please do something, the mother pleaded.
The young lady was in the backyard of this farmhouse inside an area fenced by barbed wire. Her arms were badly scraped up because she’d been pushing them against the barbed wire fence. The first thing she said to me was that if I tried to cross the fence she’d kill herself. I complied.
For the next twenty minutes or so this young lady seemed to go in and out of normal consciousness, talking with me for brief periods in a semi-coherent fashion, then suddenly going into fits during which she’d growl and shake her head back and forth. During several of these fits this girl would throw herself against the barbed fence, causing more scraping to her arms.
Suddenly, in the middle of one of these fits, the girl reached down and grabbed a scrap piece of barbed wire that was laying on the ground. With lightening speed she wrapped the wire around her neck and, looking up into the sky and howling, began pulling it back and forth — as if she was trying to saw off her head! The surrealistic image is forever seared into my memory.
I jumped the fence and pinned the girl to the ground, preventing her from further harming herself. I screamed for her mother to call for help.
As I struggled to keep the young lady from sawing her head off, I was amazed at how strong she was. I could bench press close to 300 pounds at this stage of my life, yet it took every ounce of strength I had to constrain this rather small teenage girl.
What I noticed next was even more disturbing, however. Holding this girl to the ground for what seemed like an eternity, I noticed that her eyes didn’t seem normal. It’s hard to describe, but they looked cold and hazy — almost lifeless. My body suddenly shuddered, as if I’d been shocked with electricity, when I suddenly got the eerie sense the girl was no longer looking at me through those eyes.
I screamed for the mother to tell the help to hurry up.
As I waited, I recalled a Gospel story about a demonized boy who shrieked when he was brought to Jesus and who would occasionally try to drown himself or throw himself into fire (Mk 9:17-29). I also recalled episodes in the New Testament where demonized people exhibited supernatural strength (Mk 5:3-4; Ac. 19:14-16). It suddenly occurred to me that this is what I was dealing with.
I began to pray and rebuke the demon, but within a couple minutes three people with a straight jacket and stretcher showed up and took the young girl away.
This event forever changed the way I look at the world. I had believed in Satan and demons since my conversion fourteen years earlier, but only now did they seem real to me. I became aware that we humans like in a spiritual war zone. I moved into what I’ve come to call a warfare worldview.
For the next seven years I studied the Bible thoroughly and read many books on the topic of spiritual warfare. Then, in 1995 I presented a paper at an academic conference on Satan and the problem of evil arguing that the problem of explaining the evil in the world can never be adequately resolved unless we take seriously the activity of Satan and other fallen spirits.
At the end of the conference an editor for InterVarsity Press (Rodney Clapp) approached me and asked me if I’d consider fleshing out my thesis in a book. I jumped at the opportunity.
Initially I planned on writing a book that would 1) lay out the biblical view of spiritual warfare; 2) provide a philosophical defense of the warfare worldview, and; 3) trace how this worldview was developed in the early church and how it was eventually lost when the Augustinian blueprint worldview became dominant. I thought the book would run two to three hundred pages. As it turned out, the three objectives became three separate books, forming a Satan and Evil trilogy.
God at War is the first book in this series. It lays out the biblical foundation for a warfare worldview.
Satan and the Problem of Evil was the second in the series, while the third, The Myth of the Blueprint, is in the process of being written.
I’ve been extremely pleased with the reception God at War has received. As of January, 2008, it’s gone through 15 printings. And I’ve been blessed to see how it’s impacted many peoples’ theology. Numerous people scholars and laypeople alike have told me the book revolutionized the way they look at God and the world. Rather than viewing all events as unfolding according to the will of God (what I call the blueprint worldview), they now understand that the world is a war zone and that it is up to God’s people to align their will with God’s will for God’s will to be done on earth as it is in heaven (Mt 6:10).
So is Boyd lying? I realize that anecdotal stories and testimonies do not truth make, but I have heard enough of these anecdotes to consider them.
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Stile, posted 10-20-2009 3:08 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 423 by AZPaul3, posted 08-03-2019 5:52 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 424 by Theodoric, posted 08-03-2019 10:46 AM Phat has replied
 Message 430 by Stile, posted 08-06-2019 1:34 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 425 of 438 (859814)
08-03-2019 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 424 by Theodoric
08-03-2019 10:46 AM


Re: Facts vs. Possibilities
I'll ask you the same thing I asked in the other thread when an opponent demanded evidence. How precisely would one go about gathering evidence for God?
Believers insist that existence itself is proof in that if something...anything exists it exists necessarily.
But I think it really is a faith decision. Without evidence. I think it was set up(designed) to be that way. You yourself said that if God(as we describe Him) really existed and you met Him face to face you would (attempt) to punch Him in the mouth for the atrocities that you yourselves deem that He has made.
But getting back to two questions.
1) Evidence. How precisely would one go about obtaining evidence for God?
2) Alternative View. A universe without God. (as defined by humans on this dust speck at this moment) How can we know and what is our responsibility moving forward? One wag once said that if God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent Him. Comments?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 424 by Theodoric, posted 08-03-2019 10:46 AM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 426 by jar, posted 08-03-2019 12:58 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 427 of 438 (859820)
08-03-2019 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 426 by jar
08-03-2019 12:58 PM


Even I Can Answer Questions That You Claim Are Meaningless
jar writes:
Question two has absolutely no meaning and so is impossible to answer in any way that does have meaning.
Oh get over yourself! Even I can answer this question using what you have quoted before.
Q: 2) Alternative View. A universe without God. (as defined by humans on this dust speck at this moment) How can we know and what is our responsibility moving forward? One wag once said that if God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent Him. Comments?
A: Even if all the stories about Jesus are only tales told round the campfire the message is still of value. (...) When you pray, the best you can hope for is advice on what YOU need to do.
See? Was that so difficult? Now one further question. Is God even necessary? I await the response from you, a Christian. Is the wag right? Or do we simply need to go and feed the hungry clothe the naked and comfort the sorrowful as any good secular humanists would do?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 426 by jar, posted 08-03-2019 12:58 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 428 by ringo, posted 08-03-2019 1:26 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 429 by jar, posted 08-03-2019 2:38 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 433 of 438 (869518)
12-31-2019 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 432 by jar
12-31-2019 2:05 PM


Re: Even I Can Answer Questions That You Claim Are Meaningless
Which would you claim to be harder? Sinning or Doing Selfless good for others?
You claim that the knowledge of good and evil was a great gift---it forced us to be responsible at any rate. And lets define sin, for the record:
Websters writes:
1a: an offense against religious or moral law
b: an action that is or is felt to be highly reprehensible
it's a sin to waste food
c: an often serious shortcoming : FAULT
2a: transgression of the law of God
b: a vitiated state of human nature in which the self is estranged from God
Based on that, I think it would be easy to simply try and be good and think soberly of myself than it would be to sin.
The apologists claim that none are righteous...(without Christ) and that all have sinned. Do you agree?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
"You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle

This message is a reply to:
 Message 432 by jar, posted 12-31-2019 2:05 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 434 by NosyNed, posted 12-31-2019 4:52 PM Phat has replied
 Message 435 by jar, posted 12-31-2019 4:59 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 436 of 438 (869550)
01-01-2020 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 434 by NosyNed
12-31-2019 4:52 PM


Re: Gifts
Myself, talking to jar writes:
You claim that the knowledge of good and evil was a great gift-
When lo and behold look who shows up! Happy New Year Ned!
NN writes:
Do you think it was a gift?
That's actually a good question. The story says that this tree was in the garden, so there would be no reason to put a poison plant in the garden now would there? This point of view adds support for the argument that knowledge is a great gift and yet must be used wisely. A&E were never taught to use it..thus they got expelled from class...but some argue that even that was supposed to happen. ringo would equate it to kicking college-age kids or mature young robins out of the nest.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
"You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle

This message is a reply to:
 Message 434 by NosyNed, posted 12-31-2019 4:52 PM NosyNed has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 437 by ringo, posted 01-02-2020 10:52 AM Phat has not replied

  
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