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Author Topic:   I Know That God Does Not Exist
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12441
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 586 of 789 (854742)
06-12-2019 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 585 by Tangle
06-12-2019 8:24 AM


Re: New Topic Spinoff
Thats a really deep and inciteful article! Allow me to quote some of it:
quote:
Though Harris read his notes from a gray MacBook, it was only Craig who had slides. This proved significant. Though the title of the debate was “Is Good from God?”, it didn’t appear on the default Notre Dame slide. Craig went first, and he displayed his own more formal title overhead: “Is the Foundation of Morality Natural or Supernatural?” Then, as far as he was concerned, he set the terms of the debate. He laid out, in carefully-worded bullet points, both what he would argue that night and what he would not. He would argue that God’s existence is the sole sound foundation for an objective morality. He wouldn’t argue that God actually exists, or that you can’t behave morally without believing in God, or what particular moral values are. He also gave reasons why Harris’s book was wrong. It was an intentionally narrow agenda.

Nearly the entire time afterward, the two talked past each other. Each accused the other of misrepresentations and red herrings, then pushed on so as not to lose the offensive. “Allowing yourself to get led around the nose by a person like Craig is a losing strategy,” Harris says. In his twenty-minute opening speech, he laid out his concept of the “moral landscape” based on the “well-being of conscious creatures,” discernible by science. In his so-called “rebuttal” periods, Harris attacked biblical morality and compared it to the Taliban. He addressed most of the subjects Craig explicitly set out to avoid. There were also some off-color remarks about fried chicken on death row and trailer parks. But being off-color was the point. “I hate to break it to you here at Notre Dame,” said Harris, “but Christianity is a cult of human sacrifice.”

Then, at every opportunity, Craig listed the points he’d made, noted that Harris had failed to respond to them, and declared victory thus far. I heard a student tell his friends at the end, “Craig had already won by the first rebuttal!”

Each spoke at an entirely different pace. Craig charged through his speeches with hardly a chance for him to breathe or us to consider. Whether at the podium or not, he speaks in flawless paragraphs. The next day he told me about feeling pressure to put on a rigorous show for his fellow philosophers at Notre Dame, whose department has been the headquarters of Christian philosophy since the 1980s. Harris, however, spoke slowly, in catchy salvos alternating with silence, as if he wanted to ensure everything could sink in for the ordinary undergrad. At the end of one speech, for instance: Pause. “Please think about this.” Pause. Applause. He explained afterward, “This is just the way I speak.”



In my world view, there is a cultural war of sorts behind many of these debates. I cannot yet summarize what it is I see, but much of it involves moral relativism vs exclusive truth claims, accusations by either side accusing the other of attempting to frame the default assumption, and for me most tellingly...the overall issue of the source of inspiration for the books of the Bible as well as the motives and intentions of the original authors. Knowing this would in my mind lean the decisiveness of such a debate one way or another. I will admit bias, however. I feel that the "war" is not simply cultural but Spiritual and that it is waged much as a political campaign would be waged....namely which side has the best candidate?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 585 by Tangle, posted 06-12-2019 8:24 AM Tangle has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 587 by ringo, posted 06-12-2019 12:21 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16675
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


(2)
Message 587 of 789 (854758)
06-12-2019 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 586 by Thugpreacha
06-12-2019 10:14 AM


Re: New Topic Spinoff
Phat writes:

In my world view, there is a cultural war of sorts behind many of these debates.


Maybe you should distinguish between the debate and the actual issue. Debates may have "winners" and "losers" but real issues aren't always so black-and-white. Creationists, apologists and other charlatans love a debate because they can over-simplify their talking points for an audience that already agrees with them. A believer with an audience of believers could read the phone book and "win" the debate.

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 586 by Thugpreacha, posted 06-12-2019 10:14 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 588 by Thugpreacha, posted 06-12-2019 2:11 PM ringo has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12441
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 588 of 789 (854761)
06-12-2019 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 587 by ringo
06-12-2019 12:21 PM


Re: New Topic Spinoff
Are you suggesting that *all* apologists are merely hucksters slanging their product? I know that you claim the moral high ground through your trump card of evidence and that you also claim to know which side is right and which is wrong based on objective truth claims through the evidence or absence thereof, but I would question the premature conclusions arising from a scientific community who has never been anywhere other than this dust speck of a planet 93 million miles from the nearest star, 7 light years from the next nearest star, in a hundred billion star galaxy among a hundred billion others. Yet through the magic of the maths and physics, the conclusion can be reached that there is NO God.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 587 by ringo, posted 06-12-2019 12:21 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 589 by ringo, posted 06-12-2019 2:25 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded
 Message 590 by AZPaul3, posted 06-12-2019 3:15 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded
 Message 591 by Stile, posted 06-12-2019 3:29 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16675
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 589 of 789 (854765)
06-12-2019 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 588 by Thugpreacha
06-12-2019 2:11 PM


Re: New Topic Spinoff
Phat writes:

Are you suggesting that *all* apologists are merely hucksters slanging their product?


You're welcome to show us one who isn't. I keep asking but you never deliver.

Phat writes:

I know that you claim the moral high ground through your trump card of evidence...


That isn't the "moral" high ground; it's the logical and objective high ground. The moral high ground would be the fact that I try to be honest about what I know and don't know - i.e. I don't pretend to get my information from communion with some spook.

Phat writes:

... I would question the premature conclusions arising from a scientific community who has never been anywhere other than this dust speck of a planet....


You haven't been anywhere else either, so why would your conclusions be more mature than mine?

Phat writes:

Yet through the magic of the maths and physics, the conclusion can be reached that there is NO God.


You have used the same method to reach the conclusion that there are no leprechauns. What"s the difference?

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 588 by Thugpreacha, posted 06-12-2019 2:11 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4136
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 590 of 789 (854769)
06-12-2019 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 588 by Thugpreacha
06-12-2019 2:11 PM


Re: New Topic Spinoff
Yet through the magic of the maths and physics, the conclusion can be reached that there is NO God.

Is there any physical evidence to evidence your god? Is there any set of physical facts that can only require a god to be explained? Is there any reason other than personal emotion to suggest that such a thing can exist?

You are not allowed to hide your god unless it doesn’t exist. You are not allowed to hide the evidence of your god in some supernatural cave of ignorance.

So where is your god? Show me. Have it come around for a nice glass of Chardonnay.

Show me some handiwork in this universe that can only come from your god.

Give me any physical evidence of this extraordinary claim there is your god.

I’ll give you a break, Thug. I know it’s an unreasonable demand because we both know it cannot be done.

With the logic of the math and the physics the conclusion *can* be reached that there is no god just like there is no pink polka doted unicorn sitting on the edge of your couch. Ignore her. She’s harmless.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 588 by Thugpreacha, posted 06-12-2019 2:11 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3526
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.9


(1)
Message 591 of 789 (854771)
06-12-2019 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 588 by Thugpreacha
06-12-2019 2:11 PM


Re: New Topic Spinoff
Thugpreacha writes:

Yet through the magic of the maths and physics, the conclusion can be reached that there is NO God.

Actually, I reach such a conclusion using all the data that all religions have been able to muster up in the last few thousand years showing that God actually is where He's supposed to be... or doing the things He's supposed to do.

Who better to search for God than those who claim He exists and is active in our lives?
Unfortunately, all those religions (including yours) haven't been able to find God in all this time.

God is only found in the imagination, in feelings.
Exactly where He would be expected to be if He didn't exist yet people wanted Him to.

Not a single person (mathematician or physics guru or pious religious member, or high religious leader) can show any place where God may make a difference.
There's always another way to make the same difference.

Not so with everything else we know to exist.

Computer chips exist - Can't get on the internet without computer chips.
Engines exist - Can't drive a car without an engine.
Peanut butter exists - Can't have a PB&J without peanut butter.

But with God? Everything can be done in another way.

Can't be happy without God? - wrong, atheists are just as happy.
Can't be successful without God? - wrong, atheists are just as successful.
Can't be full of peace and love without God? - wrong, atheists are just as full of peace and love.
Can't be spiritually fulfilled without God? - wrong, atheists are just as spiritually fulfilled.
Can't keep your family safe without God? - wrong, atheists' families are just as safe.

Everywhere we look... especially in the supernatural or the subjective or the spiritual or the religious-world... there is nothing that can't be achieved equally without God.

Why is a believer who obtains something from God always equivalent to an unbeliever who obtains the same thing without God?
How many times must this test be done before it is accepted as positive that God does not exist?
How many times must we check the North Pole before it is accepted as positive that Santa Claus does not exist?

Why have a double-standard?
And, of course, the only answer is "because believers want a double-standard because they want God to exist."

Which is fine for their own personal subjective thoughts and feelings.
It simply doesn't fly when we move into the realm of objective reality - where entities actually "exist."

Therefore, it is through "the religious" more so than maths and physics, that I reach the conclusion that there is NO God.

Who else is better suited to find Him?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 588 by Thugpreacha, posted 06-12-2019 2:11 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 592 by AZPaul3, posted 06-12-2019 3:37 PM Stile has acknowledged this reply
 Message 593 by Tanypteryx, posted 06-12-2019 4:03 PM Stile has acknowledged this reply
 Message 594 by 1.61803, posted 06-13-2019 2:40 PM Stile has responded
 Message 595 by Thugpreacha, posted 06-13-2019 5:54 PM Stile has responded
 Message 597 by Dredge, posted 06-14-2019 3:39 AM Stile has responded

    
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4136
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 592 of 789 (854772)
06-12-2019 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 591 by Stile
06-12-2019 3:29 PM


Re: New Topic Spinoff
How many times must we check the North Pole before it is accepted as positive that Santa Claus does not exist?

Whoa!

What?!


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 591 by Stile, posted 06-12-2019 3:29 PM Stile has acknowledged this reply

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2240
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 593 of 789 (854773)
06-12-2019 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 591 by Stile
06-12-2019 3:29 PM


Re: New Topic Spinoff
How many times must we check the North Pole before it is accepted as positive that Santa Claus does not exist?

There's a lot more evidence that Santa Claus is real than there is for god. Shit, I even saw the dude with my own eyes last December in the mall, and yet every 10 year old knows Santa is a fantasy.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 591 by Stile, posted 06-12-2019 3:29 PM Stile has acknowledged this reply

    
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2841
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 594 of 789 (854841)
06-13-2019 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 591 by Stile
06-12-2019 3:29 PM


Re: New Topic Spinoff

Stile writes:

Therefore, it is through "the religious" more so than maths and physics, that I reach the conclusion that there is NO God.


Hello Stile,
I feel like the main problem with these sorts of discussions is that here is never any clear consensus of what exactly is God.

If one means that God is a made up thing from our imagination then I agree with you. That God does not exist except in our imagination.
Humans have been making up shit since the first human uttered a word. But I also note that alot of what was made up has come to be understood and now is agreed to exist. Is it possible that God is like that?
The supernatural imo is a place holder for that which we as yet do not understand.
I do not know that God does not exist. I do not know that other universes do not exist either. I can only hope there is something more to all this than just a absurd and arbitrary occurrence. And yes it is merely a hope.

Edited by 1.61803, : added image


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 591 by Stile, posted 06-12-2019 3:29 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 603 by Stile, posted 06-14-2019 9:40 AM 1.61803 has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12441
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 595 of 789 (854878)
06-13-2019 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 591 by Stile
06-12-2019 3:29 PM


Topic Summary According to Thugzy
ringo writes:

I don't pretend to get my information from communion with some spook.

Show evidence that I am pretending. There have been numerous times when decisions made after a sincere and honest prayer led to the appearance of a needed person being at the exact place that I was going.

One such instance happened years ago when my father passed away. We arrived at the hospital after the emergency ambulance was called. Mom was distraught and in need of comfort. At that time, I didn't even know the Lord, but we prayed while going down to the hospital as a family in crises. As we were walking into the hospital, Moms Pastor from her church walked right in front of us. He was seemingly there on unrelated business but was in the right spot at that exact moment. You will, of course, argue in favor of random coincidence. I could recite for you at least twenty other stories similar. My conclusion is that you guys believe what you want to think. You don't want God to exist...at least not my version. Your version has a God who serves the needs of humanity...whereas my version has a God who foreknows the destiny of humankind and Who allows for them to learn through trial and error yet who helps those who are His.

Argue all you want about starving children of other beliefs being ignored. Argue all you want about the many unanswered prayers that could be used as counter-examples to my claim. I charge you as being in willful denial of belief in God. You don't think you need Him. Not on His terms, at any rate.

ringo writes:

You haven't been anywhere else either, so why would your conclusions be more mature than mine?

Because I allowed myself to take a leap of faith into a place you wouldn't even want to go. Do you think this world is crazy now? It will get worse, and you and your kind will get even angrier at the "believers" for messing up your secular atheist paradise. That is until all hell breaks loose and you may find yourself needing help from a Deity. Many will curse the prospect until the day they die, and nothing can be done for them.
Thugzy writes:

Yet through the magic of the maths and physics, the conclusion can be reached that there is NO God.


ringo writes:

You have used the same method to conclude that there are no leprechauns. What"s the difference?

Obviously, to you there is no difference between Leprechauns and the God we preach.
Matt 12:38-41 writes:

NKJV--
Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered, saying, "Teacher, we want to see a sign from You."
39 But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Signs and wonders follow those whom believe. (and DO, arguably.) If you want evidence, I present to you the believers themselves. We are the evidence. We are the only evidence you will likely ever find.

Vines writes:

SIGN
In 1 Cor 1:22, "the Jews ask for signs," RV, indicates that the Apostles were met with the same demand from Jews as Christ had been: "signs were vouchsafed in plenty, signs of God's power and love, but these were not the signs which they sought... They wanted signs of an outward Messianic Kingdom, of temporal triumph, of real greatness for the chosen people... With such cravings the Gospel of a 'crucified Messiah' was to them a stumblingblock indeed" (Lightfoot); 1 Cor 14:22; (2) by demons, Rev 16:14; (3) by false teachers or prophets, indications of assumed authority, e. g., Matt 24:24; Mark 13:22; (4) by Satan through his special agents, 2 Thess 2:9; Rev 13:13,14; 19:20; (d) of tokens portending future events, e. g., Matt 24:3, where "the sign of the Son of Man" signifies, subjectively, that the Son of Man is Himself the "sign" of what He is about to do; Mark 13:4; Luke 21:7,11,25; Acts 2:19; Rev 12:1, RV; 12:3, RV; 15:1.

"Signs" confirmatory of what God had accomplished in the atoning sacrifice of Christ, His resurrection and ascension, and of the sending of the Holy Spirit, were given to the Jews for their recognition, as at Pentecost, and supernatural acts by apostolic ministry, as well as by the supernatural operations in the churches, such as the gift of tongues and prophesyings; there is no record of the continuance of these latter after the circumstances recorded in Acts 19:1-20.


Of course, you won't believe any of this either. You will grow increasingly angry at the believers. We will become full of joy. Even our own member Faith will become more loving and tolerant of those she now hates. (Either that or she won't make it!) This will all come to pass.

Look, I have a rational mind, but I don't doubt what I know.

Leprechauns have yet to become real to me.

AZPaul3 writes:

Is there any physical evidence to evidence your god? Is there any set of physical facts that can only require a god to be explained? Is there any reason other than personal emotion to suggest that such a thing can exist?

You are not allowed to hide your god unless it doesn’t exist. You are not allowed to hide the evidence of your god in some supernatural cave of ignorance.

So where is your god? Show me. Have it come around for a nice glass of Chardonnay.

Show me some handiwork in this universe that can only come from your god.

Give me any physical evidence of this extraordinary claim there is your god.
I’ll give you a break, Thug. I know it’s an unreasonable demand because we both know it cannot be done.
With the logic of the math and the physics, the conclusion *can* be reached that there is no god just like there is no pink polka dotted unicorn sitting on the edge of your couch. Ignore her. She’s harmless.

Do you know something? I like you guys here. We show each other mutual respect. We each think the other one wrong, but we get along nonetheless.

Thugpreacha writes:

Yet through the magic of the maths and physics, the conclusion can be reached that there is NO God.


Stile writes:

Actually, I reach such a conclusion using all the data that all religions have been able to muster up in the last few thousand years showing that God actually is where He's supposed to be... or doing the things He's supposed to do.

I am questioning just what it is that He is *supposed* to do...enlighten me.

Who better to search for God than those who claim He exists and is active in our lives?
Unfortunately, all those religions (including yours) haven't been able to find God in all this time.
He found us, though.

God is only found in the imagination, in feelings.
Exactly where He would be expected to be if He didn't exist yet people wanted Him to.
No argument there, except that He is not limited to our imagination.

Not a single person (mathematician or physics guru or pious religious member, or high religious leader) can show any place where God may make a difference.
That's because His presence protects both believers and unbelievers. There is no way to show the effects of the absence of God because He is not absent.
There's always another way to make the same difference.
I hope for the sake of those left after God removes His Spirit from the earth that they can find another way because it will be hell.

Computer chips exist - Can't get on the internet without computer chips.
Engines exist - Can't drive a car without an engine.
Peanut butter exists - Can't have a PB&J without peanut butter.

But with God? Everything can be done in another way.

Again, nobody can show another way until the experiment is done in the absence of the Holy Spirit.

Matt 12:31-32 writes:


"Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
NKJV

There will come a day when the church has finished its work. At that time, everyone alive will have made up their mind eternally and finally as to what they will choose to believe. At this time, all on earth---everyone alive will know that there is a supernatural spiritual war. It will be similar to what happened with Judas when Jesus called him out. Satan entered him. At this time, whenever it will be (and I believe that it will be), Faith may get her Rapture...and she better hope that she has made peace with her maker.

The church will be taken out. Many will rejoice who are left. For a brief season, perhaps. Until they see what is coming next, Stile, you will get a chance to prove that everything can be done another way at that time if you are still alive. But quite frankly, I believe that you are too loving to get left behind. God will show all of you more signs of the reality of this belief. Satan, meanwhile, will make many religious people continue to say dumb things and do stupid, vile things which discredit God. It is a war.

My only advice? Keep an open mind. Don't make your conclusions just yet. Continue being good to people and doing your best as if God never existed. I love you guys.

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 591 by Stile, posted 06-12-2019 3:29 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 596 by Tangle, posted 06-13-2019 6:18 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded
 Message 604 by Stile, posted 06-14-2019 9:58 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply
 Message 607 by ringo, posted 06-14-2019 12:15 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6918
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.2


(2)
Message 596 of 789 (854881)
06-13-2019 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 595 by Thugpreacha
06-13-2019 5:54 PM


Re: Topic Summary According to Thugzy
ThugPhat writes:

Argue all you want about starving children of other beliefs being ignored. Argue all you want about the many unanswered prayers that could be used as counter-examples to my claim.

So you'll put aside permanent global human and animal suffering as evidence of the non-existence of god, but state as an clincher of a loving god that cares for us the coincidental presence of a priest in a hospital?

Your god killed your father but gave you a priest to make it all better? You've lost the plot man. Stop those diet drugs, they're making you ill.

I charge you as being in willful denial of belief in God.

Guilty as charged. Thank god. I just got lucky I guess.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 595 by Thugpreacha, posted 06-13-2019 5:54 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 598 by Dredge, posted 06-14-2019 3:46 AM Tangle has responded

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 1176
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 597 of 789 (854927)
06-14-2019 3:39 AM
Reply to: Message 591 by Stile
06-12-2019 3:29 PM


Re: New Topic Spinoff
Stile writes:

God is only found in the imagination, in feelings


God is increasing easy to find in nature - namely, science.

Can't be happy without God? - wrong, atheists are just as happy.

When I'm on my death-bed, I will be very much looking forward to dying an waking up in heaven. When your average atheist is on his death-bed, he will be overwhelmed by fear and sadness, as all he has to look forward to is eternal oblivion after living a meaningless life.

Can't be spiritually fulfilled without God? - wrong, atheists are just as spiritually fulfilled.

Spiritually without God or an after-life? How does that work?

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 591 by Stile, posted 06-12-2019 3:29 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 599 by Tangle, posted 06-14-2019 3:54 AM Dredge has not yet responded
 Message 605 by Stile, posted 06-14-2019 10:14 AM Dredge has responded

    
Dredge
Member
Posts: 1176
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 598 of 789 (854928)
06-14-2019 3:46 AM
Reply to: Message 596 by Tangle
06-13-2019 6:18 PM


Re: Topic Summary According to Thugzy
Forgetting about organised religion for a sec, would it make you happy to know that there exists a God who loves you and promises to grant those who love him in return eternal life in a heavenly paradise?

Or are you happier believing that there is no such God and that this life is all there is?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 596 by Tangle, posted 06-13-2019 6:18 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 600 by Thugpreacha, posted 06-14-2019 5:24 AM Dredge has responded
 Message 602 by Tangle, posted 06-14-2019 5:42 AM Dredge has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6918
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 599 of 789 (854929)
06-14-2019 3:54 AM
Reply to: Message 597 by Dredge
06-14-2019 3:39 AM


Re: New Topic Spinoff
Dredge writes:

When I'm on my death-bed, I will be very much looking forward to dying an waking up in heaven.

A relative of mine finally died of pancreatic cancer this week. He was a believer and died clutching his little wooden cross. I hope it gave him some comfort but I can tell you for sure that for the last 3 weeks of his life he was in almost permanent pain and only wanted it to be over. The most obvious comfort he got was from modern medicine - a cocktail of drugs that virtually comatosed him until he finally passed. Personally I'd put more trust in that than the little cross.

When your average atheist is on his death-bed, he will be overwhelmed by fear and sadness, as all he has to look forward to is eternal oblivion after living a meaningless life.

I really hope that fear and sadness is all that I feel - death beds are not as romantic as you think they are.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 597 by Dredge, posted 06-14-2019 3:39 AM Dredge has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 601 by Thugpreacha, posted 06-14-2019 5:28 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12441
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 600 of 789 (854936)
06-14-2019 5:24 AM
Reply to: Message 598 by Dredge
06-14-2019 3:46 AM


Re: Topic Summary According to Thugzy
Dredge, to Tangle writes:

would it make you happy to know that there exists a God who loves you and promises to grant those who love him in return eternal life in a heavenly paradise?
Or are you happier believing that there is no such God and that this life is all there is?

I will speak on Tangles behalf, which is itself an odd thing but...well, you know me. It obviously would make me happy to know that I know that God is real and loves me. That being said, I would perhaps not be so happy if God was jealous and wanted me to only love Him at the exclusion of all of the things I love in this world. Granted, many are worthless idols, and I would do well to let them go. For some, religion itself is a worthless idol. Take note, Dredge! Some folks are so invested in being able to say to everyone else that they were right and everyone else was wrong. But if that is the only motive...to be right...God is unimpressed and even angry with them.

And what if you were a man of logic and reason who had a family and who did care about them and was unwilling to throw his logic, reason, and reality away to follow some ethereal spook with empty cultural and dogmatic promises for fear that abandoning reason may just hurt his family? What then, o wise one?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 598 by Dredge, posted 06-14-2019 3:46 AM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 622 by Dredge, posted 06-17-2019 7:51 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
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