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Author | Topic: I Know That God Does Not Exist | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I recently watched an intense debate between Ben Shapiro and William Lane Craig. The transcript, auto-generated on YouTube, is fascinating.
I plan on spinning off a new topic based on this transcript and the 50+ minute dialogue between two polished speakers.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I have the raw transcript in Google Docs via a shareable link, but I need to go through the 72+pages and attribute which words to what speaker. I should have it done soon.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Tangle writes: I am attempting to edit the transcript over at my new topic, (by edit I mean to attribute the raw data to the proper speaker)and I hope to get it promoted soon. I would also be interested in finding the Sam Harris debate and discussing that one at my new topic as well. Tangle, can you find a link to the Sam Harris debate which you're referred to? I really dislike Craig because he calls himself logical and is a philosopher but as soon as he gets onto god his logic goes to pieces. I watched the first ten minutes or so and found myself disagreeing with him but finding his answers fair and logical, then he got onto god and he talked utter shit. I saw Sam Harris debate with him and he just shrugged in disbelief that someone with obvious training in logic would fall apart when trying to justify the existence of god. It was embarrassing to watch. His premises fail. Weird thing to watch happening to an academic.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Thats a really deep and inciteful article! Allow me to quote some of it:
quote:In my world view, there is a cultural war of sorts behind many of these debates. I cannot yet summarize what it is I see, but much of it involves moral relativism vs exclusive truth claims, accusations by either side accusing the other of attempting to frame the default assumption, and for me most tellingly...the overall issue of the source of inspiration for the books of the Bible as well as the motives and intentions of the original authors. Knowing this would in my mind lean the decisiveness of such a debate one way or another. I will admit bias, however. I feel that the "war" is not simply cultural but Spiritual and that it is waged much as a political campaign would be waged....namely which side has the best candidate? Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Are you suggesting that *all* apologists are merely hucksters slanging their product? I know that you claim the moral high ground through your trump card of evidence and that you also claim to know which side is right and which is wrong based on objective truth claims through the evidence or absence thereof, but I would question the premature conclusions arising from a scientific community who has never been anywhere other than this dust speck of a planet 93 million miles from the nearest star, 7 light years from the next nearest star, in a hundred billion star galaxy among a hundred billion others. Yet through the magic of the maths and physics, the conclusion can be reached that there is NO God.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo writes: Show evidence that I am pretending. There have been numerous times when decisions made after a sincere and honest prayer led to the appearance of a needed person being at the exact place that I was going. I don't pretend to get my information from communion with some spook. One such instance happened years ago when my father passed away. We arrived at the hospital after the emergency ambulance was called. Mom was distraught and in need of comfort. At that time, I didn't even know the Lord, but we prayed while going down to the hospital as a family in crises. As we were walking into the hospital, Moms Pastor from her church walked right in front of us. He was seemingly there on unrelated business but was in the right spot at that exact moment. You will, of course, argue in favor of random coincidence. I could recite for you at least twenty other stories similar. My conclusion is that you guys believe what you want to think. You don't want God to exist...at least not my version. Your version has a God who serves the needs of humanity...whereas my version has a God who foreknows the destiny of humankind and Who allows for them to learn through trial and error yet who helps those who are His. Argue all you want about starving children of other beliefs being ignored. Argue all you want about the many unanswered prayers that could be used as counter-examples to my claim. I charge you as being in willful denial of belief in God. You don't think you need Him. Not on His terms, at any rate.
ringo writes: Because I allowed myself to take a leap of faith into a place you wouldn't even want to go. Do you think this world is crazy now? It will get worse, and you and your kind will get even angrier at the "believers" for messing up your secular atheist paradise. That is until all hell breaks loose and you may find yourself needing help from a Deity. Many will curse the prospect until the day they die, and nothing can be done for them.
You haven't been anywhere else either, so why would your conclusions be more mature than mine?Thugzy writes:
Yet through the magic of the maths and physics, the conclusion can be reached that there is NO God.ringo writes: Obviously, to you there is no difference between Leprechauns and the God we preach. You have used the same method to conclude that there are no leprechauns. What"s the difference?Matt 12:38-41 writes: Signs and wonders follow those whom believe. (and DO, arguably.) If you want evidence, I present to you the believers themselves. We are the evidence. We are the only evidence you will likely ever find.
NKJV--Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered, saying, "Teacher, we want to see a sign from You." 39 But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Vines writes:
Of course, you won't believe any of this either. You will grow increasingly angry at the believers. We will become full of joy. Even our own member Faith will become more loving and tolerant of those she now hates. (Either that or she won't make it!) This will all come to pass. SIGNIn 1 Cor 1:22, "the Jews ask for signs," RV, indicates that the Apostles were met with the same demand from Jews as Christ had been: "signs were vouchsafed in plenty, signs of God's power and love, but these were not the signs which they sought... They wanted signs of an outward Messianic Kingdom, of temporal triumph, of real greatness for the chosen people... With such cravings the Gospel of a 'crucified Messiah' was to them a stumblingblock indeed" (Lightfoot); 1 Cor 14:22; (2) by demons, Rev 16:14; (3) by false teachers or prophets, indications of assumed authority, e. g., Matt 24:24; Mark 13:22; (4) by Satan through his special agents, 2 Thess 2:9; Rev 13:13,14; 19:20; (d) of tokens portending future events, e. g., Matt 24:3, where "the sign of the Son of Man" signifies, subjectively, that the Son of Man is Himself the "sign" of what He is about to do; Mark 13:4; Luke 21:7,11,25; Acts 2:19; Rev 12:1, RV; 12:3, RV; 15:1. "Signs" confirmatory of what God had accomplished in the atoning sacrifice of Christ, His resurrection and ascension, and of the sending of the Holy Spirit, were given to the Jews for their recognition, as at Pentecost, and supernatural acts by apostolic ministry, as well as by the supernatural operations in the churches, such as the gift of tongues and prophesyings; there is no record of the continuance of these latter after the circumstances recorded in Acts 19:1-20. Look, I have a rational mind, but I don't doubt what I know. Leprechauns have yet to become real to me.
AZPaul3 writes: Do you know something? I like you guys here. We show each other mutual respect. We each think the other one wrong, but we get along nonetheless.
Is there any physical evidence to evidence your god? Is there any set of physical facts that can only require a god to be explained? Is there any reason other than personal emotion to suggest that such a thing can exist? You are not allowed to hide your god unless it doesn’t exist. You are not allowed to hide the evidence of your god in some supernatural cave of ignorance. So where is your god? Show me. Have it come around for a nice glass of Chardonnay. Show me some handiwork in this universe that can only come from your god. Give me any physical evidence of this extraordinary claim there is your god.I’ll give you a break, Thug. I know it’s an unreasonable demand because we both know it cannot be done. With the logic of the math and the physics, the conclusion *can* be reached that there is no god just like there is no pink polka dotted unicorn sitting on the edge of your couch. Ignore her. She’s harmless. Thugpreacha writes:
Yet through the magic of the maths and physics, the conclusion can be reached that there is NO God.Stile writes: I am questioning just what it is that He is *supposed* to do...enlighten me.
Actually, I reach such a conclusion using all the data that all religions have been able to muster up in the last few thousand years showing that God actually is where He's supposed to be... or doing the things He's supposed to do. Who better to search for God than those who claim He exists and is active in our lives? He found us, though.
Unfortunately, all those religions (including yours) haven't been able to find God in all this time. God is only found in the imagination, in feelings. No argument there, except that He is not limited to our imagination.
Exactly where He would be expected to be if He didn't exist yet people wanted Him to. Not a single person (mathematician or physics guru or pious religious member, or high religious leader) can show any place where God may make a difference. That's because His presence protects both believers and unbelievers. There is no way to show the effects of the absence of God because He is not absent.
There's always another way to make the same difference. I hope for the sake of those left after God removes His Spirit from the earth that they can find another way because it will be hell.
Computer chips exist - Can't get on the internet without computer chips. Again, nobody can show another way until the experiment is done in the absence of the Holy Spirit.
Engines exist - Can't drive a car without an engine. Peanut butter exists - Can't have a PB&J without peanut butter. But with God? Everything can be done in another way. Matt 12:31-32 writes:
"Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.NKJV There will come a day when the church has finished its work. At that time, everyone alive will have made up their mind eternally and finally as to what they will choose to believe. At this time, all on earth---everyone alive will know that there is a supernatural spiritual war. It will be similar to what happened with Judas when Jesus called him out. Satan entered him. At this time, whenever it will be (and I believe that it will be), Faith may get her Rapture...and she better hope that she has made peace with her maker. The church will be taken out. Many will rejoice who are left. For a brief season, perhaps. Until they see what is coming next, Stile, you will get a chance to prove that everything can be done another way at that time if you are still alive. But quite frankly, I believe that you are too loving to get left behind. God will show all of you more signs of the reality of this belief. Satan, meanwhile, will make many religious people continue to say dumb things and do stupid, vile things which discredit God. It is a war. My only advice? Keep an open mind. Don't make your conclusions just yet. Continue being good to people and doing your best as if God never existed. I love you guys. Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Dredge, to Tangle writes: I will speak on Tangles behalf, which is itself an odd thing but...well, you know me. It obviously would make me happy to know that I know that God is real and loves me. That being said, I would perhaps not be so happy if God was jealous and wanted me to only love Him at the exclusion of all of the things I love in this world. Granted, many are worthless idols, and I would do well to let them go. For some, religion itself is a worthless idol. Take note, Dredge! Some folks are so invested in being able to say to everyone else that they were right and everyone else was wrong. But if that is the only motive...to be right...God is unimpressed and even angry with them. would it make you happy to know that there exists a God who loves you and promises to grant those who love him in return eternal life in a heavenly paradise?Or are you happier believing that there is no such God and that this life is all there is? And what if you were a man of logic and reason who had a family and who did care about them and was unwilling to throw his logic, reason, and reality away to follow some ethereal spook with empty cultural and dogmatic promises for fear that abandoning reason may just hurt his family? What then, o wise one?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Tangle writes: Me too. A Symbol is nothing more than clutching a dead hope. The medicine at least killed the pain...if only for a few moments it allowed him clarity of thought. If he met a living hope rather than a dead symbol, the medicine served its purpose well. I hope it gave him some comfort but I can tell you for sure that for the last 3 weeks of his life he was in almost permanent pain and only wanted it to be over. The most obvious comfort he got was from modern medicine - a cocktail of drugs that virtually comatosed him until he finally passed. Personally, I'd put more trust in that than the little cross. Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Stile writes: God is Spirit. In order to even be able to defend spirituality without God, you must be able to name or at least define the other spirits. I am very spiritual - without God.What part of "spiritual" do you think is only available from God? Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
In defense of Alex, all that the computer does is assemble letters into words. the actual thoughts and beliefs are human generated. I would never engage in a serious relationship with any computer at any time.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
AZPaul3, addressing Faith writes:
Here is food for thought:
None of your future prognostications will ever come true just like none of your past predictions. It's all bs.2 Peter 3:1-7 writes: So perhaps while we are "waiting on God", God is waiting on us.
Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), 2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, 3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation." 5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. NKJV2 Peter 3:8-9 writes: The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. NKJVChance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Tangle to Dredge writes: And I really hope that it continues being a lovely thing. Do you think I want the world to end? Paul may have said that to live is Christ and to die is gain, but I certainly am in no hurry to leave this place. Im just hitting my stride at Age 59! ...You're going to have to trust me on this - I find life a lovely thing.
We really should go fishing. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
AZPaul3, replying to Faith writes: Check out Psalms 14.
When it comes to religion, reality cannot help but be blind. There is nothing there.Ps 14:1-3 writes:
Psalms 53 also addresses this.
The fool has said in his heart,"There is no God." They are corrupt, They have done abominable works, There is none who does good. 2 The LORD looks down from heaven upon the children of men,To see if there are any who understand, who seek God. 3 They have all turned aside, They have together become corrupt; There is none who does good, No, not one. NKJV Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1
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AZPaul3, addressing Faith writes: I'd be interested to see the argument expressed in writing. Do you mean that this "hate" originate with Jesus Himself or do you mean that those who called themselves Christians perpetuated and justified hatred and manifest destiny through the use of Christian principles? You make excuses for a philosophy of hate.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
rringo writes: Uh huh. Lets how about I??? fOCUS. Eating the fruit made Adam and Eve more like God. He said so Himself. Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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