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Author Topic:   A test for claimed knowledge of how macroevolution occurs
Dredge
Member
Posts: 1291
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1 of 785 (854631)
06-11-2019 2:51 AM


I often hear evolutionists claim they "know how macroevolution occurs". If their claim is valid, then they should have no trouble explaining how, for example, the evolutionary ancestors of whales - ie, a rodent-like creature - could (hypothetically) be bred by humans to produce a whale (given unlimited time).

Thousands of years of animal breeding have demonstrated that there are real limits to how radically animals can be changed from their "original" form. For instance, wolves were bred to produce many different breeds of dogs, but harmful mutations limit how far this process can be taken. How can these genetic limitations be overcome to breed a whale from a sort-of-rodent?

"In his recent book, The Greatest Show on Earth: The Evidence of Evolution, Richard Dawkins observes airily that human beings are "distant cousins of bananas and turnips." Yet minutely observant plant breeders, "daily and hourly scrutinizing" their productions (to quote Darwin on natural selection), are unable to turn purple roses into blue ones." (Tom Bethell, Natural Limits to Variation, or Reversal to the Mean: Is Evolution Just Extrapolation by Another Name, evolutionnews.org)

"The available data of biology indicates that in contrast to evolutionary theories, there is sufficient evidence to suggest that biological change has limits." (Lane P. Lester and Raymond G. Bohlin, The Natural Limits of Biological Change, 1984, p.149)

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.


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Dredge
Member
Posts: 1291
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 29 of 785 (854715)
06-12-2019 2:08 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by RAZD
06-11-2019 8:51 AM


Re: When undertaking a vast enterprise don't start with half vast models
RAZD writes:

Breeding is not evolution by natural selection.


Quite right - it's evolution by artificial selection.

I can't see why an naturally-occurring evolution couldn't theoretically be repeated by a human breeding program - assuming unlimited time is available and the evolutionary mechanisms and direction are known.


This message is a reply to:
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Dredge
Member
Posts: 1291
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 31 of 785 (854718)
06-12-2019 2:37 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by ProtoTypical
06-11-2019 9:46 AM


"In just 26 generations, we managed to create relationships between the shape and size of (fruit) fly wings that were more extreme than those resulting from more than 50 million years of evolution." - Geir H. Bolstad, researcher at the Norwegian for Nature Research. (sciencedaily.com, "58,000 fruit flies shed light on 100-year old evolutionary question", 2015)

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Dredge
Member
Posts: 1291
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 33 of 785 (854720)
06-12-2019 2:43 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Tanypteryx
06-11-2019 10:53 AM


Tanypteryx writes:

Breeding is not a surrogate for evolution.


The only difference between breeding and macroevolution is the former is determined by artificial selection and the latter is determined by natural selection.

If you "know how macroevolution occurs" you would know how to breed a whale from its alleged evolutionary ancestor - a rodent-like creature.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.


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Dredge
Member
Posts: 1291
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 34 of 785 (854721)
06-12-2019 2:48 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Tangle
06-11-2019 11:41 AM



Tangle writes:

The ToE requires very large amounts of time - often millions of years. We can't therefore show you step by step how evolution has happened.


… and since you also "know" the biological mechanism responsible for this alleged evolution, you shouldn't have any trouble explaining how you would (theoretically) go about breeding a whale from its alleged evolutionary ancestor - a "rodent".

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Dredge
Member
Posts: 1291
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


(1)
Message 36 of 785 (854723)
06-12-2019 3:11 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Tangle
06-12-2019 2:54 AM


If you have no idea how to even begin breeding these alleged ancestral "rodents" towards whale-ness, then I must conclude you have no idea how macroevolution occurs and that your claim to this knowledge is bogus and delusionary.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.


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Dredge
Member
Posts: 1291
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 40 of 785 (854727)
06-12-2019 4:57 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Tangle
06-12-2019 4:18 AM


No need to go into every precise detail. How would you begin to breed these "rodents" to move them along the path to whale-ness? Would you select those that like to swim? Maybe there are some born with webbed-feet? How would you go about moving their nostrils to the top of their heads?

And how would you overcome the problem of decreased genetic diversity every time to select for a desired feature? For example, once you select for those that like to hang out in the ocean, you've immediately reduced the population by a huge percentage - how many of these landlubbing rodents are going to prefer the ocean to land, do you think? 1%? 0.1%? 0.01%? From this reduced popularion, you then have to select for other desired features. Me thinks you're going to quickly run out of genetic diversity before you can select all the features necessary to progress towards a whale.


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Dredge
Member
Posts: 1291
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 79 of 785 (854805)
06-12-2019 11:50 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by edge
06-11-2019 8:56 AM


edge writes:

Please demonstrate to us that human breeding of dogs introduced targeted mutations into their genomes.


Sorry, but I don’t understand your question (which is probably due to the facts that I have a fragile eggshell mind and my IQ is only 9).

Btw, do you know how to bred ancient “rodents” so that a whale will eventually evolve?

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.


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Dredge
Member
Posts: 1291
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 80 of 785 (854806)
06-12-2019 11:57 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Stile
06-11-2019 9:15 AM


Stile writes:

Your test doesn't align with the claim.


The fact of the matter is, if you don’t know how to breed ancients “rodents” into a whale, you don’t know how whales evolved and you don't know how macroevolution occurs.

The explanation of your test, however, also begins relatively simply:
1. Start with a very large population of rodents - equivalent to that when such rodents roamed the earth.
2. Provide an environment equivalent to that when such rodents roamed the earth.
3. Provide selection pressures equivalent to that when such rodents roamed the earth.
4. Wait for the populations to reproduce and evolve due to selection pressures and mutations.
5. If the progressive evolution of the rodent into a whale isn't matching what occurred the 1 time it previously happened at any point in the "unlimited time" available for the breeding - kill off all creatures and begin again at step 1.
-due to the random nature of mutations, this is expected to occur many, many times before it matches the 1 time it previously happened again.
6. Viola - a large population of whales.

Point 1 makes some sense - except you have absolutely no idea how large the rodent population must be. So there’s problem No. 1 for any potential breeding program. If you don’t know how large the initial population must be, this means your knowledge of how macroevolution occurs is based on a certain degree of ignorance and guesswork.

Points 2-4 are irrelevant - artificial selection means you don’t need to reply on natural selection. If you don’t know how to artificially select the rodents you need to breed them towards whale-ness, this demonstrates that you don’t know how your alleged evolution occurred.

Point 5 indicates that you don’t know how an ancient “rodent” evolved to eventually become a whale. You’re just stabbing in the dark and hoping for the best.

Point 6 indicates that your so-called knowledge of whale evolution and how macroevolution occurs is childishly simplistic, based on blind faith and pseudo-science.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.


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Dredge
Member
Posts: 1291
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 81 of 785 (854807)
06-13-2019 12:26 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Percy
06-11-2019 3:28 PM


Percy writes:

whales didn't evolve from rodents but from a now extinct ungulate (a hoofed animal), i.e., it no longer exists


Whatever. You’re splitting hairs - some articles describe the evolutionary ancestors of whales as a “rodent-like creature”. And I realize that this ancestral creature (whatever it is) is extinct.

Second, even if this ungulate did exist, because mutations are random repeating the experiment is unlikely to produce whales … Third, even if this original ungulate did exist, we couldn't keep it unchanged from one run of the experiment to the next because it would evolve too. The only way to actually run the experiment is to begin with an infinite number of ungulates and run an infinite number of these experiments simultaneously.

If you don't know how to breed whales from their ancestral “rodents”, you don't know how whales evolved nor how macroevolution occurs.

Can you even explain how the first step in such a breeding program? How are you going to bred these landlubber “rodents” such that a large enough population of them live permanently in the ocean?

And Fourth, we don't know the details of the changing environments that occurred in sequence, including the now extinct plants and creatures that populated them. Even if we did, they don't exist anymore. That is, we don't know what the selection pressures were, and even if we did we couldn't reproduce them.

You don’ need to know what the ancient environment was like and you don't need selection pressures - in the proposed breeding program the necessary features are selected artificially, not naturally. If you dont know which "rodent" features to select, then you don't know how whales evolved.

Since breeding leaves mutation out of the equation you are absolutely right that there are limits to the degree of changes breeding can effect.

I don't understand this. Breeding leaves mutations out of the equation? Aren’t mutations responsible for the natural variations in dogs, for example, which breeders have exploited to produce hundreds of different breeds? Dog breeders also induce unnatural mutations via inbreeding, which are also selected.

Dredge writes:

For instance, wolves were bred to produce many different breeds of dogs, but harmful mutations limit how far this process can be taken. How can these genetic limitations be overcome to breed a whale from a sort-of-rodent?

Mutations.

Oh, do you mean the imaginary species-vaulting mutations of Darwinist folklore that thousands of years of animal breeding has no evidence of?

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.


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Dredge
Member
Posts: 1291
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 82 of 785 (854808)
06-13-2019 12:41 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Taq
06-11-2019 4:24 PM


Taq writes:

Dredge writes:

For instance, wolves were bred to produce many different breeds of dogs, but harmful mutations limit how far this process can be taken.


You have never supported this assertion.

It's common knowledge:

"Health and welfare problems in pedigree dogs can arise as a result of the deliberate selection for exaggerated physical features or as a result of inherited disease. While some of the following problems can occur in any breed, cross breed or mixed breed dogs, purebred pedigree dogs are at greater risk and appear to be over-represented clinically. This is mainly due to traditional breeding practices.
Difficulty breathing
Difficulty giving birth
Difficulty walking
Serious eye problems
Serious skin problems"

https://www.rspca.org.au/...ve-common-problems-pedigree-dogs

Dredge writes:

How can these genetic limitations be overcome to breed a whale from a sort-of-rodent?


It is overcome by selection over millions of years.

So the story goes - which contradicts thousand of years of empirical evidence gathered by animal and plant breeders.

"In his recent book, The Greatest Show on Earth: The Evidence of Evolution, Richard Dawkins observes airily that human beings are "distant cousins of bananas and turnips." Yet minutely observant plant breeders, "daily and hourly scrutinizing" their productions (to quote Darwin on natural selection), are unable to turn purple roses into blue ones." (Tom Bethell, Natural Limits to Variation, or Reversal to the Mean: Is Evolution Just Extrapolation by Another Name, evolutionnews.org)

"The available data of biology indicates that in contrast to evolutionary theories, there is sufficient evidence to suggest that biological change has limits." (Lane P. Lester and Raymond G. Bohlin, The Natural Limits of Biological Change, 1984, p.149)

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.


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Dredge
Member
Posts: 1291
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 83 of 785 (854809)
06-13-2019 12:47 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Taq
06-11-2019 4:24 PM


Taq writes:

In other words, we would need to take millions of years to replay the evolutionary history.


Not necessarily.

"In just 26 generations, we managed to create relationships between the shape and size of (fruit) fly wings that were more extreme than those resulting from more than 50 million years of evolution." - Geir H. Bolstad, researcher at the Norwegian for Nature Research. (sciencedaily.com, "58,000 fruit flies shed light on 100-year old evolutionary question", 2015)

And btw, the OP did say the breeding program is hypothetical.

Thousands of years of breeding is not enough time to produce the needed variation.

Time is not a problem, as we talking hypothetically. Which "rodent" feature would you select first in order to get the breeding program rolling down the road towards whales-ness? Hind-legs fused together to form a tail, perhaps?

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.


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Dredge
Member
Posts: 1291
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 84 of 785 (854810)
06-13-2019 12:59 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Tanypteryx
06-11-2019 6:34 PM


Tanypteryx writes:

This is incorrect. It is not a mutation here and a mutation there. If we use humans as an example, there are on average 100 mutations in every individual in a population. If we take the population of reproducers as 1 billion people, they have a combined 100 BILLION NEW MUTATIONS in just their generation of our population. If you take the whole human population there are 750 BILLION NEW MUTATIONS right now.


Yet humans remain humans … and dogs remain dogs, water rats remain water rats, E. coli remain E. coli ... funny that.

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Dredge
Member
Posts: 1291
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 85 of 785 (854811)
06-13-2019 1:06 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by RAZD
06-11-2019 10:35 PM


RAZD writes:

Expandingng on this the process, the implied simulation of the actual known natural history of evolution of whales on earth would entail:
...
provide an environment similar to, but wetter, than their previous environments


No need to - a breeding program relies on artificial selection, not natural selection.

select the healthiest survivors, make single genetic changes to each individuals reproductive gametes that would make them closer to the whale genomes available

If you have to rely on genetic engineering to evolve your rodents, you are admitting you don’t know how to breed them in order to eventually produce a whale - in which case you don’t know how whale evolution happened nor how macroevolution occurs.

and breed them randomly
if they are whale-like, then you are done
if they are not whale-like, repeat from step 2
if they all perish, start over from the beginning

In other words, you don’t know how a whale evolved from a “rodent”. You’re relying on trial’n’error and luck, rather than knowledge.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.


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Dredge
Member
Posts: 1291
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 87 of 785 (854813)
06-13-2019 1:10 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Faith
06-12-2019 1:12 AM


=FaithMore likely your rodent is just going to get tired of being wet and long since would have emigrated to a more congenial climate.

LOL! But seriously, Faith, haven’t you seen those polar bears that live full-time in the ocean, whose hind-legs have fused together into sort of a tail, whose front-legs look kinda like flippers and whose nostrils have moved to the top of their heads?

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