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Author Topic:   A test for claimed knowledge of how macroevolution occurs
Taq
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Posts: 8490
Joined: 03-06-2009


Message 136 of 785 (854876)
06-13-2019 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by Faith
06-13-2019 5:20 PM


Re: Can we back up for a basic genetics discussion?
Faith writes:

Could we ignore the mutations issue until I get how the Bs and bs show up in the DNA?

You have 23 pairs of chromosomes. Each chromosome of a pair has the same genes, but possibly different versions of those genes called alleles. The different versions differ by DNA sequence.


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Taq
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Posts: 8490
Joined: 03-06-2009


Message 137 of 785 (854879)
06-13-2019 6:06 PM


Mitosis for Faith
Let's start with mitosis. This is how human cells multiply in your body. You start with 23 pairs of chromosomes, duplicate them, and then separate the duplicates into different cells. (I apologize if the background is black. I included blockcolor code, but apparently it doesn't work for everyone).



  
Taq
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Posts: 8490
Joined: 03-06-2009


Message 138 of 785 (854880)
06-13-2019 6:16 PM


Meiosis for Faith
Meiosis is a bit more complicated. This is the process that creates egg and sperm, each of which only carries one copy of each chromosome instead of the pairs found in your other cells in your body.

In the first step the chromosomes have already replicated, so they are at the sister chromatids stage in the mitosis picture. This first step is the same as mitosis. However, things get a bit different from here. In meiosis I you get recombination between homologous chromosomes which is often called "crossing over". This usually happens about once per chromosome. After the chromosome pairs have swapped pieces, the pairs are separate from one another. After the pairs are separated, the sister chromatids are separated. What you end up with is sex cells with only half the number of chromosomes. When they combine they produce the usual 23 pairs of chromosomes.


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AZPaul3
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Posts: 6226
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 139 of 785 (854882)
06-13-2019 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Faith
06-13-2019 2:53 PM


Re: Tracking the route of macroevolution
You have a misunderstanding of the scope we are addressing. We are not talking a few or few dozen mutations between some pair of close species. We’re talking billions of them.

In humans between parents and child there are on average about 100 mutations introduced into the genome. 100 mutations introduced into the genome per birth. That’s a lot of mutations in a population of billions of breeding beings.

Now, take that times how many generations for millions of years? The genome available to the breeding population now is millions of mutations different from the starting population millions of years ago.

No one can identify the chain of how many of what groups of mutations were responsible for the path taken by nature from rat to whale.

A mutation or mutations that could turn a dog into a different species would have to change the dog genome in some way, otherwise mutations would just vary the dog stuff and it would still be a dog.

You’re not half wrong. Whatever species bud off the dog species in the next million years or so will still have that dog lineage and that, by then heavily mutated, dog genome.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

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 Message 107 by Faith, posted 06-13-2019 2:53 PM Faith has responded

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 564 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 140 of 785 (854885)
06-13-2019 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by Taq
06-13-2019 6:16 PM


Re: Meiosis for Faith
I just want to know how the B and the b show up in the DNA.

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Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 564 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 141 of 785 (854886)
06-13-2019 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by AZPaul3
06-13-2019 6:21 PM


Re: Tracking the route of macroevolution
Either mutations are random mistakes or they are somehow organized in a way nobody has yet described that I know of. If they are random mistakes they cannot do what you all claim they do.l

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6226
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 142 of 785 (854894)
06-13-2019 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Faith
06-13-2019 6:52 PM


Re: Tracking the route of macroevolution
Yes, they are random mistakes. Not mistakes. Changes.

Random changes from all kinds of sources. Single nucleotide to whole chromosomal segments.

But there are a lot of them. By the billions just in one species in one generation.

You know that has to have an effect on the genome available to distant populations.

How could it not alter the appearance of the far future offspring? There is no known mechanism to stop it.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Faith, posted 06-13-2019 6:52 PM Faith has responded

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 564 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 143 of 785 (854896)
06-13-2019 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by AZPaul3
06-13-2019 8:07 PM


Re: Tracking the route of macroevolution
I would expect it to alter it, but not in any beneficial way.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6226
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.7


(1)
Message 144 of 785 (854904)
06-13-2019 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Faith
06-13-2019 8:16 PM


Re: Tracking the route of macroevolution
Of the billions of new genes available to a population a million years from now the beneficial ones will have survived. By the billions. By definition the less beneficial the less it appears in the gene pool. The future genome will be built by only the more successful alleles of which many billions would have arisen in that past million years.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Faith, posted 06-13-2019 8:16 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Faith, posted 06-13-2019 9:39 PM AZPaul3 has responded
 Message 146 by Tanypteryx, posted 06-13-2019 9:43 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 564 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 145 of 785 (854905)
06-13-2019 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by AZPaul3
06-13-2019 9:19 PM


Re: Tracking the route of macroevolution
I still don't really get how B and b get expressed on the DNA strand, but I'll have to think about that later.

Not only do I think this idea of millions of years is nutz, I think the idea that mutations create healthy alleles is also nutz.


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Replies to this message:
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Tanypteryx
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Posts: 2786
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 146 of 785 (854906)
06-13-2019 9:43 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by AZPaul3
06-13-2019 9:19 PM


Re: Tracking the route of macroevolution
So close...I thought she was going to get it, but then the noise spiked.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6226
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 147 of 785 (854909)
06-13-2019 10:04 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Faith
06-13-2019 9:39 PM


Re: Tracking the route of macroevolution
Other control groups of DNA/RNA. All subject to mutation of course.

B and b are alleles. They are on the DNA strand like any other allele and get expressed/activated/transcribed into protein in the same way as any other allele when the full chain of the control groups has worked its magic. The control groups are activated/controlled by yet other control groups which determine which allele gets activated for how long.

Well I can't help with Dem Nutz but that is the scoop from the reality side of the fence.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

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 Message 145 by Faith, posted 06-13-2019 9:39 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6226
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 148 of 785 (854910)
06-13-2019 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by Tanypteryx
06-13-2019 9:43 PM


Re: Tracking the route of macroevolution
Oh, she knows. She gets it. But the religion is still in the way.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Tanypteryx, posted 06-13-2019 9:43 PM Tanypteryx has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by caffeine, posted 06-14-2019 4:28 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6226
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 149 of 785 (854911)
06-13-2019 10:30 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Faith
06-13-2019 9:39 PM


Re: Tracking the route of macroevolution
Tany just gave me a thought. (Thank you, Tany)

You know, Love, you can still be a good biblical conservative alt-reich racist commie Stalinist fascist theocrat and still understand the true nature of evolution. You know that right? The two aren’t necessarily exclusive.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Faith, posted 06-13-2019 9:39 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
PaulK
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Posts: 17072
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 150 of 785 (854915)
06-14-2019 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by Faith
06-13-2019 6:51 PM


Re: Meiosis for Faith
The B and the b show up as sequences of DNA and there will be a range of DNA sequences that correspond to each. Alleles are largely identified by effect, but if different mutations cause the same effect the resulting alleles would usually be considered distinct (assuming we know).

I should point out, again, that the relationship between genes and morphology is complicated so the “effect” is not a guaranteed - or simple - thing once you get beyond protein sequences.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Faith, posted 06-13-2019 6:51 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
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