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Author | Topic: The Trump Presidency | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8551 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Sarah Huckabee is leaving at end of month.
Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4441 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Well, she quit holding press briefings a long time ago. At least that minimized the number of lies she told. She said she wants to be remembered as honest and transparent.
Sorry Huckasand, no one is going to remember you.What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
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Percy Member Posts: 22490 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.0 |
On Wednesday President Trump said he'd accept information about campaign opponents from Russia or other foreign governments. Some reporting, like this very article, said that while accepting foreign money was illegal, accepting information was "murkier."
But I have always said that it isn't "murkier." Campaign law says:
quote: Many apparently have doubt about whether information is a "thing of value," but there can be no doubt. Information is obviously a "thing of value." People pay for news, and campaigns pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for opposition research. Information is obviously and unambiguously a "thing of value." Today Federal Election Commission (FEC) Chairwoman Ellen Weintraub released a statement that was obviously a response to Trump's comments and that makes the law unambiguously clear to everyone:
quote: Even after this announcement some in the media still expressed doubt about whether information constitutes a "thing of value." I cannot for the life of me figure out where their doubt is coming from. The Trump campaign considered damaging information on Hillary Clinton so valuable that they sent Donald Trump Jr, Jared Kushner and Paul Manafort (and others) to a meeting in Trump Tower with Russians offering such information. And that they understood the illegality of it is made clear by the fact that they later lied about the nature of the meeting. --Percy
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marc9000 Member Posts: 1522 From: Ky U.S. Joined: Member Rating: 1.3
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Even after this announcement some in the media still expressed doubt about whether information constitutes a "thing of value." I cannot for the life of me figure out where their doubt is coming from. My guess is that their doubt comes from a fear that not only Hillary, but the entire Democratic National Committee could be called into question for doing the exact same thing that is the latest Trump attack. Hillary Clinton, like Donald Trump, endorsed idea of political dirt from overseas - Washington Times https://www.washingtonpost.com/...68-4e7ba8439ca6_story.html
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Percy Member Posts: 22490 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.0
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marc9000 writes: My guess is that their doubt comes from a fear that not only Hillary, but the entire Democratic National Committee could be called into question for doing the exact same thing that is the latest Trump attack. Trump and many people on his campaign had dealings with Russia. The Clinton campaign wanted to know if there was anything about these dealings that would be helpful to the campaign, and so they decided to investigate. They contracted out this opposition research, which all presidential candidates do. The research required seeking evidence and information from those who would know about it, which would mostly be Russians. Trump, on the other hand and for just a couple examples, sent top campaign officials to a meeting in Trump Tower with Russians offering dirt on Hillary Clinton, and Manafort met with a Russian who had Russian intelligence connections where he shared internal Trump polling data so that Russian intelligence agencies could better target their social media election-influencing efforts. Please explain how these are "the exact same thing." An absence of evidence was not why Mueller declined to raise any indictments for conspiracy. There was plenty of evidence. He charged no indictments only because he felt the bar for conviction was higher than the available evidence could justify. He also said that obstruction efforts played a role in keeping the evidence below a conviction-worthy level. --Percy Edited by Percy, : Fix grammar mistake, and improve the clarity of the first two sentences of the last paragraph.
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JonF Member (Idle past 194 days) Posts: 6174 Joined: |
I am continuously astonished that this bullshit refuses to die. There's a fundamental and critical difference between the scenarios.
Receiving or soliciting a donation of information of value is flat-out illegal. That's what Trump said he would do, and it's what many think Don Jr. did in that infamous June 2016 meeting. The reason is that when one party receives something of value and the other doesn't there's a good possibility it creates an undesirable debt owed to the second party. Ask a Mafia Don for a favor and he does it, but some day Vito Corleone's on the phone saying "remember when I did you a solid...". Hillary's campaign paid (in part) for the Steele dossier. A normal commercial transaction that all campaigns do. Some or all of it coming from foreign entities is no problem. One party gets (presumably) legally collected information and the other party gets money. Nobody's done anyone any favors and Vito is stymied. The mendacity of the right-wing media is sickening. I've looked at a half-dozen or so web sites and seen several more quoted. All of them say "Hillary did it so nyah nyah nyah!" and none of them mention the fundamental difference. As to the value of information, it can be a little fuzzy. From Is it actually illegal to accept “campaign dirt” from foreigners?:
quote: Edited by JonF, : No reason given.
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JonF Member (Idle past 194 days) Posts: 6174 Joined: |
U.S. Escalates Online Attacks on Russia’s Power Grid, at the end of the article:
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marc9000 Member Posts: 1522 From: Ky U.S. Joined: Member Rating: 1.3
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Trump and many people on his campaign had dealings with Russia. The Clinton campaign wanted to know if there was anything about these dealings that would be helpful to the campaign, and so they decided to investigate. They contracted out this opposition research, which all presidential candidates do. The research required seeking evidence and information from those who would know about it, which would mostly be Russians. This paragraph seems to imply that all of Hillary's foreign dealings were a reaction to Trump's peoples dealings with Russia. She was accepting foreign donations back during the Obama administration when Democrats were doing little more than laughing at the color of Trump's hair. From my above (Washington Post) link;
quote: Trump, on the other hand and for just a couple examples, sent top campaign officials to a meeting in Trump Tower with Russians offering dirt on Hillary Clinton, and Manafort met with a Russian who had Russian intelligence connections where he shared internal Trump polling data so that Russian intelligence agencies could better target their social media election-influencing efforts. Yes yes, that's been trumpeted in the news for a long time, and hasn't died down too much even though Mueller couldn't do anything with it. But the cause for latest Democrat hysteria is Trump's response to Stephanopoulos's gotcha question, which Trump couldn't possibly answer without setting Democrats / mainstream media into a frenzy. He said "he'd listen", and we see what's happening. If he'd said; "oh no, I wouldn't listen", then we'd have heard "LIAR LIAR LIAR, WHAT WERE YOU DOING WHEN YOU SENT YOUR SON TO MEET WITH THE RUSSIANS?" Maybe he could have just said "no comment", do you think the media would have had something to say about that? ABC claims that Stephanopoulos spent 30 hours with Trump - at first glance, one wonders why Trump would allow this much of his time to be wasted, playing defense with a bunch of loaded questions from a former member of Bill Clinton's cabinet, a biased Democrat who now masquerades as a "journalist". Trump probably figures, correctly, that this interview will help him in the long run. Many voters will see ABC's attempts to edit and distort it to try to discredit him. It probably won't completely backfire on them, but it won't help them much either. Also, it shows a difference between him and past presidents - would a past president allow a journalist who is clearly biased against them to spend 30 hours with them, firing one question after another at them? Would Obama have allowed a Fox News journalist, like Brett Bair, or Britt Hume, 30 hours to question him? Actually, Bair and Hume aren't in the same league as Stephanopoulos, a better equivalent would be a former member of the Reagan administration who is now a political commentator, one Mark Levin. I wonder how Obama would have held up after 30 hours, or 30 minutes of questioning from him?
Please explain how these are "the exact same thing." You're right, they probably aren't much the same, what Hillary did was probably far worse. But as is rightly pointed out by Democrats, Hillary isn't president and has no power. Not much of anything is going to come of any of this, other than what the voters are seeing. I think a significant number of voters who voted in this current Democrat house were expecting them to address a few things other than a hatred of Trump, a movement to get him out of office before his first term is up. I think a few of them had things like healthcare costs, some bi-partisan action on the southern border, etc. on their minds. They're not seeing much of that, are they?
An absence of evidence was not why Mueller declined to raise any indictments for conspiracy. There was plenty of evidence. He charged no indictments only because he felt the bar for conviction was higher than the available evidence could justify. I wasn't aware that this "bar" varied all around in its height - who is in charge of moving this bar around? I suspect that this bar is at the same height all the time, and this available evidence was too flimsy to hold up in proper legal scrutiny.
He also said that obstruction efforts played a role in keeping the evidence below a conviction-worthy level. But he couldn't prove them. So case closed. But Democrats keep crying. And voters are watching.
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marc9000 Member Posts: 1522 From: Ky U.S. Joined: Member Rating: 1.3
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Receiving or soliciting a donation of information of value is flat-out illegal. How about a donation of MONEY?
Hillary's campaign paid (in part) for the Steele dossier. A normal commercial transaction that all campaigns do. Some or all of it coming from foreign entities is no problem. One party gets (presumably) legally collected information and the other party gets money. Nobody's done anyone any favors and Vito is stymied. If only the Steele dossier wouldn't have been full of lies, maybe Hillary would have had something.
The mendacity of the right-wing media is sickening. I've looked at a half-dozen or so web sites and seen several more quoted. All of them say "Hillary did it so nyah nyah nyah!" and none of them mention the fundamental difference. Here's one of them, get your barf bag out.
quote: More here; Democrats are Apoplectic That Trump Would Listen To A Foreigner With Dirt On An Opponent – RedState "Fundamental difference"? Or a liberal dance?
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Percy Member Posts: 22490 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.0 |
Trump has ordered that the number of science advisory committees be reduced by a third across all federal agencies.
Clinton reduced the number of all types of advisory committees by a third in 1993, not just science advisory committees. The number of advisory committees grew only slightly during the Bush and Obama years, and Trump already reduced them by 20% during the first year of his presidency (and the membership by 14%). Many committees are not science related (many are focused on things like economics or foreign policy), so this represents a comparatively severe reduction in the amount of informed and knowledgeable input the government will receive on science based issues. To put this in perspective, the total number of advisory committees numbered around a thousand near the end of 2016, which does seem like a great many. It is Trump's targeting of science committees that is concerning. Source: Trump's order to slash number of science advisory boards blasted by critics as 'nonsensical' --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22490 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.0 |
A Washington Post opinion/analysis piece describes how Trump silenced critics and blew his own horn in order to create the myth of a wealthy and successful businessman. Some interesting excerpts:
quote: --Percy
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JonF Member (Idle past 194 days) Posts: 6174 Joined:
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She was accepting foreign donations back during the Obama administration when Democrats were doing little more than laughing at the color of Trump's hair. From my above (Washington Post) link;
The Clinton Foundation is not a campaign. If you want to establish illegality, you have to demonstrate that money somehow being transferred to the campaign, or explicitly demonstrate a quid pro quo. quote: Which nobody's done.
If he'd said; "oh no, I wouldn't listen", then we'd have heard "LIAR LIAR LIAR, WHAT WERE YOU DOING WHEN YOU SENT YOUR SON TO MEET WITH THE RUSSIANS?
Republicans oppose Democrats because of what Republicans say Democrats do. Democrats oppose Republicans because of what Republicans do. Your vivid fantasies are not evidence.
quote:What HIllary did was legal and accepted practice for campaigns. As I explained, it was a straightforward commercial transaction that all campaigns do. quote:Until Congress acts. Yes, the voters are watching, and the majority of them don't like what they see Trump and the Trumpettes doing. Edited by JonF, : No reason given. Edited by JonF, : No reason given.
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JonF Member (Idle past 194 days) Posts: 6174 Joined:
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Receiving or soliciting a donation of information of value is flat-out illegal.
How about a donation of MONEY? Didn't think so.
If only the Steele dossier wouldn't have been full of lies, maybe Hillary would have had something.
Irrelevant to the legality of the Clinton campaigns's actions.
Here's one of them, get your barf bag out.
Thank you for emphasizing the truth of my point. Your quote does not mention the fundamental difference, the fact that Hillary's campaign did nothing illegal in obtaining the dossier. quote: ABE Yes, the appalling lies in that quote do make me want to barf.
"Fundamental difference"? Or a liberal dance?
To me the difference between legal and illegal is fundamental. Do you disagree? Edited by JonF, : No reason given. Edited by JonF, : No reason given.
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Percy Member Posts: 22490 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.0
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marc9000 writes: This paragraph seems to imply that all of Hillary's foreign dealings... Hillary Clinton's campaign had no "foreign dealings" that anyone has ever reported.
...were a reaction to Trump's peoples dealings with Russia. All presidential campaigns always do opposition research. Hillary Clinton's campaign would have conducted opposition research on Trump no matter what, just as the Trump campaign conducted opposition research on Hillary Clinton. That Trump was so involved with Russia no doubt came up in discussions with Fusion GPS about what to focus attention on.
She was accepting foreign donations back during the Obama administration when Democrats were doing little more than laughing at the color of Trump's hair. From my above (Washington Post) link;
quote: The Clinton Foundation is a charitable organization, not a political campaign. No money from the Clinton Foundation ever leaked into a Hillary Clinton political campaign. The Clinton Foundation continues to engage in charitable work throughout the world, while the Trump Foundation was found to have engaged in "persistently illegal conduct" and was shut down by the state of New York where the investigation continues and could result in criminal charges against Trump after he leaves office.
But the cause for latest Democrat hysteria is Trump's response to Stephanopoulos's gotcha question, which Trump couldn't possibly answer without setting Democrats / mainstream media into a frenzy. He said "he'd listen", and we see what's happening. Even many Republicans, such as staunch Trump supporters Lindsey Graham (R-SC) and John Kennedy (R-LA), have made clear they understand that Trump's answer is a violation of the law. Everyone but Trump seems to understand that accepting foreign help in a political campaign is illegal.
Please explain how these are "the exact same thing." You're right, they probably aren't much the same, what Hillary did was probably far worse. You'll have to explain your logic. How is doing opposition research, engaged in by both the Clinton and Trump campaigns, far worse than taking meetings with Russians to get dirt on a political opponent and to help Russian intelligent services engage in social media campaigns to influence the US election?
But as is rightly pointed out by Democrats, Hillary isn't president and has no power. Not much of anything is going to come of any of this, other than what the voters are seeing. I think a significant number of voters who voted in this current Democrat house were expecting them to address a few things other than a hatred of Trump, a movement to get him out of office before his first term is up. I think a few of them had things like healthcare costs, some bipartisan action on the southern border, etc. on their minds. They're not seeing much of that, are they? I don't know why you would say this. House Democrats have, for example, passed bills to reduce prescriptions drug prices, to protect preexisting conditions, and to address veterans issues, and when they tried to present their infrastructure plan to Trump a few weeks ago he walked out of the meeting.
An absence of evidence was not why Mueller declined to raise any indictments for conspiracy. There was plenty of evidence. He charged no indictments only because he felt the bar for conviction was higher than the available evidence could justify. I wasn't aware that this "bar" varied all around in its height - who is in charge of moving this bar around? I suspect that this bar is at the same height all the time, and this available evidence was too flimsy to hold up in proper legal scrutiny. You should read what I said again. There's nothing about a moving bar. The bar for conviction on conspiracy charges is always very high. The evidence was insufficient to meet that bar, but there was still a great deal of evidence. The Mueller report wouldn't have been over 400 pages long if there hadn't been a great deal of evidence.
He also said that obstruction efforts played a role in keeping the evidence below a conviction-worthy level. But he couldn't prove them. So case closed. You should read the report again. It says that Justice Department guidelines state that a sitting president cannot be indicted, so the report only lays out the evidence without drawing any conclusions, except to say that in the face of that evidence it was impossible to exonerate the president. William Barr seriously erred when he declared the president exonerated. The Justice Department, as Mueller layed out in his report, does not have the power to do that. Only Congress has that power. --Percy
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JonF Member (Idle past 194 days) Posts: 6174 Joined: |
Trump tweets:
quote: Trump is, of course, ignorant of the fact that a good part of the dossier was paid for by the conservative Washington Free Beacon. While I'm here, from the House Permanent Select Committee on IntelligenceReport on Russian Active Measures at the time led by a Republican): quote:
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