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Author Topic:   A test for claimed knowledge of how macroevolution occurs
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 714 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 226 of 785 (855104)
06-16-2019 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by Tangle
06-16-2019 2:24 PM


Re: Tracking the route of macroevolution
The problem you're having is that you ascribe purpose to everything so the coincidence is shocking to you

Why do people allow themselves to impute motives to others that can't possibly be known? It creates noise in a conversation having to deal with all that error and the error may persist for pages and pages and in fact never be corrected and it comes to be taken for truth no matter how many times it may be corrected.

Oh well.

No, the "problem" I'm having is that I've LEARNED from YOU EV-OS that mutations are RANDOM and beneficial ones VERY RARE. So when I hear that one has conveniently turned up "just in time" to save the day as it were, I have a "problem" thinking of this as a mutation.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by Tangle, posted 06-16-2019 2:24 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 228 by PaulK, posted 06-16-2019 2:36 PM Faith has replied
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 Message 232 by Tangle, posted 06-16-2019 2:42 PM Faith has replied
 Message 236 by ringo, posted 06-16-2019 2:59 PM Faith has taken no action

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 227 of 785 (855105)
06-16-2019 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by Faith
06-16-2019 2:31 PM


Re: Tracking the route of macroevolution
Why do people allow themselves to impute motives to others that can't possibly be known.

You, the most prolific practitioner, don't know?

Edited by JonF, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17171
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 228 of 785 (855106)
06-16-2019 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by Faith
06-16-2019 2:31 PM


Re: Tracking the route of macroevolution
quote:

No, the "problem" I'm having is that I've LEARNED from YOU **** that mutations are RANDOM and beneficial ones RARE. So when I hear that one has conveniently turned up "just in time" to save the day as it were, I have a "problem" thinking of this as a mutation.

I’m not convinced it was “just in time” and I don’t think you have a good idea of the time available either. Besides your extreme bias against mutations has been demonstrated here quite sufficiently.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by Faith, posted 06-16-2019 2:31 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by Faith, posted 06-16-2019 2:38 PM PaulK has replied
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 714 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 229 of 785 (855107)
06-16-2019 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by PaulK
06-16-2019 2:36 PM


Re: Tracking the route of macroevolution
Now there's another perfect example of nothing but "noise." You put out a lot of it.
"

This message is a reply to:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 8549
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 230 of 785 (855108)
06-16-2019 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by PaulK
06-16-2019 2:31 PM


Re: Tracking the route of macroevolution
Faith writes:

I think it’s more to the point to consider the question of how many mutations might have provided the dark colouration. I would be surprised if it were only one. Melanism is not that uncommon.

Uh? Why would it matter to the basic claim (that mutations can be beneficial and be selected for) which gene mutated?

We also know exactly which gene did. Read the paper.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


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JonF
Member
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 231 of 785 (855109)
06-16-2019 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by Faith
06-16-2019 2:31 PM


Re: Tracking the route of macroevolution
It's very rare for a mutation to show up and save the day. Well over 90% of species are extinct.

Stunningly improbable events happen all the time. State lotteries are sucker bets with horrible odds against winning. Yet people win.


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Tangle
Member
Posts: 8549
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 232 of 785 (855110)
06-16-2019 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by Faith
06-16-2019 2:31 PM


Re: Tracking the route of macroevolution
Faith writes:

No, the "problem" I'm having is that I've LEARNED from YOU EV-OS that mutations are RANDOM and beneficial ones VERY RARE. So when I hear that one has conveniently turned up "just in time" to save the day as it were, I have a "problem" thinking of this as a mutation.

But Faith we KNOW it was a mutation. We have the proof. We can show you the gene that mutated. Your choice is to accept the science of show where it's wrong. You can not just have an opinion that it's wrong based on nothing but incredulity.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by Faith, posted 06-16-2019 2:31 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by Faith, posted 06-16-2019 2:47 PM Tangle has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17171
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 233 of 785 (855111)
06-16-2019 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by Faith
06-16-2019 2:38 PM


Re: Tracking the route of macroevolution
quote:

Now there's another perfect example of nothing but "noise." You put out a lot of it.
"

I will point out first that if the “just in time” is part of your assessment it is valid to question that. Compare my reaction to your similar point above.

And it is a fact that you are biased against mutations - to the point where you tried to suggest actual mutations weren’t mutations.


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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 714 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 234 of 785 (855112)
06-16-2019 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by Tangle
06-16-2019 2:42 PM


Re: Tracking the route of macroevolution
The problem is that the explanations aren't convincing. Why aren't YOU skeptical of the timing? Not that it could be something other than a mutation but it doesn't fit the usual idea of a mutation and yet you are all just accepting it anyway.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17171
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 235 of 785 (855114)
06-16-2019 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by Faith
06-16-2019 2:47 PM


Re: Tracking the route of macroevolution
quote:

The problem is that the explanations aren't convincing. Why aren't YOU skeptical of the timing?

I’m not because I am not convinced the timing was that tight, because melanism is fairly common (so likely there are other ways for it to happen) and because unlikely events do happen.

quote:

...it doesn't fit the usual idea of a mutation and yet you are all just accepting it anyway.

But it does fit the “usual idea of a mutation”.


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ringo
Member
Posts: 19612
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 236 of 785 (855117)
06-16-2019 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by Faith
06-16-2019 2:31 PM


Re: Tracking the route of macroevolution
Faith writes:

... mutations are RANDOM and beneficial ones VERY RARE.


Do you understand the difference between "rare" and "non-existent"? You seem to keep saying that evolution by beneficial mutation is "impossible" when the truth is that even you understand that it's rare. I think everybody here agrees that it's rare but like lottery wins, it does happen..

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6737
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 237 of 785 (855118)
06-16-2019 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by Faith
06-16-2019 2:47 PM


Re: Tracking the route of macroevolution
So you maybe think the genome knew back in 1811 that this mutation was going to be needed in 40 years? And that by 1895 it would cover 95+% of the population?

I suppose that is the kind of majik religionists believe.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

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 Message 234 by Faith, posted 06-16-2019 2:47 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 3345
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.5


(1)
Message 238 of 785 (855119)
06-16-2019 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by Faith
06-16-2019 2:47 PM


Re: Tracking the route of macroevolution
Faith writes:

Not that it could be something other than a mutation but it doesn't fit the usual idea of a mutation and yet you are all just accepting it anyway.

How would we know what "your usual idea of a mutation" is? Half the time you insist that mutations do not even exist. And why would we pay any attention to what "your usual idea of a mutation" is, when we have data from scientists who study and understand genetics and biology and evolution.

In the papers I have read about it, it fits my idea of mutation perfectly.

Until your fantasy scenario actually describes and explains what is actually seen in the genetics of various organisms no one is going to pay any attention to it.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by Faith, posted 06-16-2019 2:47 PM Faith has replied

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17171
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 239 of 785 (855120)
06-16-2019 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by AZPaul3
06-16-2019 3:03 PM


Re: Tracking the route of macroevolution
95% of the population where? It was 98% in Manchester - a heavily industrial area. I really doubt that it was 95% of the national population.

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 714 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 240 of 785 (855121)
06-16-2019 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by AZPaul3
06-16-2019 3:03 PM


Re: Tracking the route of macroevolution
I was kind of wondering if that was going to come up. A mutation that occurred so much earlier than it was needed raises the question how it could have survived the years when the other color characterized the entire population.

I guess it survived in the two or five percent?

But then I'm back to thinking no mutation was needed at all, just the usual built in variant.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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