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Author Topic:   A test for claimed knowledge of how macroevolution occurs
Taq
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Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 266 of 785 (855177)
06-17-2019 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 166 by caffeine
06-14-2019 4:11 PM


caffeine writes:
MC1R is a very famous gene, since it's effect on coloration makes its mutations obvious, and since variation in MC1R plays a role in some of the most immediately obvious variation amongst humans. For the same reasons of obvious phenotypic effect, MC1R has been extensively studied in other animals. Wild boar, for example, are monotypic for MC1R - all wild animals have the same allele. Domestic pigs, however, have at least four different MC1R alleles, which contribute to the huge variation in colour of domestic breeds. Now, it is of course possible that the ancestral wild population contained all these alleles, which have coincidentally been lost by drift in the reduced wild population. It seems much more likely to me, though, that these are all post-domestication mutations which have spread once pigs were removed from the selective constraints of camouflage. This sort of thing has presumably created the canvas from which breeders have selected in many domesticated species.
You may have seen me references this paper before, but there is a great study on MC1R and natural selection in rock pocket mice:
Just a moment...

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Taq
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Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 267 of 785 (855179)
06-17-2019 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by Faith
06-15-2019 4:40 PM


Re: Tracking the route of macroevolution
Faith writes:
And since you note that there are recognizable differences between chimp and human organs and bones although we have the same organs and bones, evolution has the task of making all those "small" changes in all those parts of the body. Seems to me that's a case of the usual wishful thinking that fuels all the assumptions of the ToE.
As I have already shown, we have the evidence that evolution was responsible for the differences between the chimp and human genomes. It isn't an assumption. The fingerprint of random mutations is all over those genomes.
Every time you say it is an assumption it is a lie. We have the evidence.

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 Message 188 by Faith, posted 06-15-2019 4:40 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by Faith, posted 06-17-2019 4:55 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 269 of 785 (855181)
06-17-2019 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by Faith
06-16-2019 3:09 PM


Re: Tracking the route of macroevolution
Faith writes:
What I doubt is that they make useful alleles.
Then you need to explain why changes to a genome can never be beneficial. If this were the case then even God could not create different species since any differences from this one and only possible functional genome would be either neutral or detrimental.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Faith, posted 06-16-2019 3:09 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by Faith, posted 06-17-2019 4:57 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 270 of 785 (855182)
06-17-2019 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 249 by Faith
06-16-2019 7:49 PM


Re: Tracking the route of macroevolution
Faith writes:
Seems to me both the peppered moths and the pocket mice used to be described in more drastic terms: it threatens their very existence if they don't get the other color to save them.
"Used to be described"? Where? I bet you can't cite a single example.
Anyway, the way both situations are being described now there never was really any controversy. So I guess I got it wrong. Both colors were always available and the protective color proliferated when the background made it necessary since the predators would pick off the contrasting color. No controversy after all, nothing interesting really.
The peppered moths were doing just fine in areas where coal ash had not darkened trees and rocks. They didn't need the mutation to survive. The mutation that produced the darker color just allowed them to expand their range into areas where coal ash had darkened the environment. If that mutation had not happened there would have been millions and millions of peppered moths out in the countryside and in other areas around the globe. Wikipedia is your friend:
quote:
Biston betularia [the peppered moth] is found in China (Heilongjiang, Jilin, Inner Mongolia, Beijing, Hebei, Shanxi, Shandong, Henan, Shaanxi, Ningxia, Gansu, Qinghai, Xinjiang, Fujian, Sichuan, Yunnan, Tibet), Russia, Mongolia, Japan, North Korea, South Korea, Nepal, Kazakhstan, Kirghizstan, Turkmenistan, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Armenia, Europe and North America.
The pocket mice were doing just with light brown fur that camouflaged them in the light brown desert. The mutation that gave them black fur allowed them to expand their range into areas with black rocks. If that mutation never happened there would still be millions and millions of light brown pocket mice out in the deserts of the southwest US.

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 Message 249 by Faith, posted 06-16-2019 7:49 PM Faith has not replied

  
Taq
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Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 271 of 785 (855183)
06-17-2019 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by Faith
06-17-2019 6:45 AM


Re: Tracking the route of macroevolution
Faith writes:
Different alleles for different genes in different individuals among other things.
What makes alleles different from each other?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Faith, posted 06-17-2019 6:45 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by Faith, posted 06-17-2019 4:50 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
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Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


(1)
Message 277 of 785 (855203)
06-17-2019 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 275 by Faith
06-17-2019 4:55 PM


Re: Tracking the route of macroevolution
Faith writes:
I think you are misreading the evidence.
Until you can show how the evidence is being misread all you have is flat denial. We have the evidence, and you haven't been able to rebut it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by Faith, posted 06-17-2019 4:55 PM Faith has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 278 of 785 (855204)
06-17-2019 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by Faith
06-17-2019 4:57 PM


Re: Tracking the route of macroevolution
Faith writes:
God doesn't make changes, He designed a genome for each creature and let it do its thing.
If the designed genomes have different sequences then those differences are changes. You are claiming that the sequence of a genome can't be any other sequence. If the sequence is different then it can only be deleterious or neutral, but never beneficial, according to your argument. Therefore, God could only design one genome and no others.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by Faith, posted 06-17-2019 4:57 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by Faith, posted 06-17-2019 5:07 PM Taq has replied
 Message 303 by Faith, posted 06-17-2019 6:35 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 279 of 785 (855205)
06-17-2019 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 272 by Faith
06-17-2019 4:50 PM


Re: Tracking the route of macroevolution
Faith writes:
The sequence.
So why couldn't random mutations produce the differences between alleles?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by Faith, posted 06-17-2019 4:50 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by Faith, posted 06-17-2019 5:08 PM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


(1)
Message 281 of 785 (855207)
06-17-2019 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by Faith
06-17-2019 4:53 PM


Re: Tracking the route of macroevolution
Faith writes:
Are beneficial mutations rare or not?
Yes, they are rare. Winning lottery numbers are also rare, yet people win the lottery all of the time using random numbers.
What you are trying to claim is that beneficial mutations are non-existent. If beneficial mutations are rare then random mutations will have no problem finding them. As I have already shown, the current human population has produced every non-lethal mutation at every position in the human genome 40 times over. I don't think you have an appreciation for the numbers involved.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by Faith, posted 06-17-2019 4:53 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by Faith, posted 06-17-2019 5:09 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 284 of 785 (855210)
06-17-2019 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by Faith
06-17-2019 5:07 PM


Re: Tracking the route of macroevolution
Faith writes:
Each genome is unique. It has nothing to do with mutations at all.
Every human is born with about 100 mutations which adds to the uniqueness of their genome. Every subsequent generation keeps adding mutations and keeps adding to the uniqueness of genomes. It has everything to do with mutations.
Do you deny the OBSERVATION that people are born with mutations?

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 Message 280 by Faith, posted 06-17-2019 5:07 PM Faith has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 285 of 785 (855211)
06-17-2019 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 283 by Faith
06-17-2019 5:09 PM


Re: Tracking the route of macroevolution
Faith writes:
I guess they happen once in a very great while but the original created genome doesn't need them.
Where is the evidence for this claim?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by Faith, posted 06-17-2019 5:09 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 286 by Faith, posted 06-17-2019 5:18 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 287 of 785 (855213)
06-17-2019 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by Faith
06-17-2019 5:18 PM


Re: Tracking the route of macroevolution
Faith writes:
It follows from my model which is different from yours.
Where is the evidence supporting your model?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by Faith, posted 06-17-2019 5:18 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by Faith, posted 06-17-2019 6:09 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 291 of 785 (855220)
06-17-2019 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 290 by Faith
06-17-2019 6:03 PM


Re: Tracking the route of macroevolution
Faith writes:
All changes in DNA are called mutations by eve-os, that's not evidence.
We have the evidence demonstrating that the differences between genomes is due to mutations. You have yet to rebut this evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by Faith, posted 06-17-2019 6:03 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by Faith, posted 06-17-2019 6:10 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 294 of 785 (855223)
06-17-2019 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by Faith
06-17-2019 6:09 PM


Re: Tracking the route of macroevolution
Faith writes:
Where is the evidence supporting yours?
The evidence is in posts 63, 114, and 122.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by Faith, posted 06-17-2019 6:09 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 295 of 785 (855224)
06-17-2019 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by Faith
06-17-2019 6:10 PM


Re: Tracking the route of macroevolution
Faith writes:
You simply call the many differences between genomes mutations, you don't prove it and you can't prove it.
Posts 63, 114, and 122. It proves beyond any doubt that differences between genomes is due to the same natural processes that we observe creating mutations in living populations. You have yet to rebut this evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by Faith, posted 06-17-2019 6:10 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by Faith, posted 06-17-2019 6:19 PM Taq has replied

  
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