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Author Topic:   I Know That God Does Not Exist
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 616 of 3207 (855170)
06-17-2019 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 610 by AlexCaledin
06-16-2019 9:13 AM


AlexCaledin writes:
Such discussions are futile for it's one's choice, to subscribe to godless "reality" or to the godly life.
Yes, very futile.
Especially in light of the fact, as described by this thread, that we all know that God Does Not Exist.
Feel free to make your "choice."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 610 by AlexCaledin, posted 06-16-2019 9:13 AM AlexCaledin has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 617 of 3207 (855185)
06-17-2019 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 615 by Stile
06-17-2019 8:58 AM


Re: Of Spirits and the After-Life
As long as you keep "ultimate or sacred meaning" in there, it's just the same old religious mumbo-jumbo.

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 615 by Stile, posted 06-17-2019 8:58 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 690 by Stile, posted 06-21-2019 9:38 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1494 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 618 of 3207 (855188)
06-17-2019 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 608 by Stile
06-14-2019 12:34 PM


Re: Knowing Something More
Do you agree that the possibility of another universe may exist?
If you answer yes; do you go on to say you know other universes do not exist despite the possibility?
You have already said you know that God does not exist despite the possibility.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 608 by Stile, posted 06-14-2019 12:34 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 619 by Stile, posted 06-17-2019 1:00 PM 1.61803 has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 619 of 3207 (855192)
06-17-2019 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 618 by 1.61803
06-17-2019 11:58 AM


Re: Knowing Something More
1.61803 writes:
Do you agree that the possibility of another universe may exist?
I don't know - what's the evidence for other universes existing?
If you answer yes; do you go on to say you know other universes do not exist despite the possibility?
My answer to this question, as the one with God, depends on looking for evidence and seeing if any is found. Again, and again and again...
You have already said you know that God does not exist despite the possibility.
That's right.
Religious experts have been searching for God in any place they can think of for thousands of years.
Every time they come up with a place and we look in that place - we find no evidence whatsoever. Not even anything that might point at evidence. All we find is nothing. Absolutely no difference between God existing where the experts say He should, and God not existing at all.
That's why I know God does not exist.
Just as I know Santa Claus and Sharkfin-soup-on-McDonald's-menu do not exist - we've looked for them where they are supposed to be and found nothing.
Haven't even looked for these as long as we've looked for God...
So, if we're going to test my consistency concerning "God" with "other universes" - we start with the same question - What is the evidence for another universe?
If there is anything that can objectively point in the direction of another universe - this raises it above the level of evidence for God.
Therefore - I would say I know it is a possibility and cannot claim to know other universes do not exist.
If the experts have looked and we have found nothing objective to show anything at all about other universes existing - then this equates to the level of evidence for God.
Therefore - I would say I know that other universes do not exist.
But, to apply the concept consistently, there's another issue involved: How much time have the experts been searching?
In keeping the "other universes" questions on the same level as God's existence, we could easily say "Let's allow the universe-experts one thousand years to search for another universe before making judgement." Now, even if no evidence is known today, we still have a lot of time to search and check - therefore, it's reasonable to say "I do not know if other universes exist or not - we are currently looking, the possibility is valid." While still remaining extremely consistent and saying: Thousands of years of looking for God has yielded no evidence whatsoever - Therefore, the possibility is beyond remote and has become irrational to cling to without any reason - This leads me to reasonably state "I Know That God Does Not Exist."
These are the kinds of questions we need to answer and compare with the results of religious experts searching for God in order to make the example you're attempting to use be applicable. Wouldn't you agree?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 618 by 1.61803, posted 06-17-2019 11:58 AM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 620 by 1.61803, posted 06-17-2019 2:40 PM Stile has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1494 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 620 of 3207 (855193)
06-17-2019 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 619 by Stile
06-17-2019 1:00 PM


Re: Knowing Something More
Stile writes:
I don't know - what's the evidence for other universes existing?
Do parallel universes exist? We might live in a multiverse | Space
These are the kinds of questions we need to answer and compare with the results of religious experts searching for God in order to make the example you're attempting to use be applicable. Wouldn't you agree?
As far as I can tell no one has yet come up with a universal definition of God. Even among theist there seems to be alot of moving the goal post. I read once that God is the thing that actualizes reality. I am not ready to abandon the idea of God yet. But thats just me.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 619 by Stile, posted 06-17-2019 1:00 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 621 by Stile, posted 06-17-2019 4:30 PM 1.61803 has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 621 of 3207 (855194)
06-17-2019 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 620 by 1.61803
06-17-2019 2:40 PM


Re: Knowing Something More
1.61803 writes:
As far as I can tell no one has yet come up with a universal definition of God.
And no one ever will.
Because a 'universal definition' requires objectivity.
And objectivity requires existence.
I am not ready to abandon the idea of God yet. But that's just me.
I don't think anyone should abandon the idea of God if they are capable of obtaining anything positive from the idea (peace, solace, purpose, empathy for their fellow man...)
But this has nothing to do with staying consistent on how we say we "know" things.
If we say we consider the existence of God a reasonable possibility and we want to be consistent:
Must we also say we consider the existence of Santa Claus a reasonable possibility?
Isn't the only difference one of popular opinion?
If we want to stay consistent and base our conclusions on rationality and reason... I don't see any way around my conclusion.
(Please note: I do not think that 'rationality' and 'reason' should always be desired traits.)

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 Message 620 by 1.61803, posted 06-17-2019 2:40 PM 1.61803 has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 622 of 3207 (855240)
06-17-2019 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 600 by Phat
06-14-2019 5:24 AM


Re: Topic Summary According to Thugzy
Thugpreacha writes:
And what if you were a man of logic and reason who had a family and who did care about them and was unwilling to throw his logic, reason, and reality away to follow some ethereal spook with empty cultural and dogmatic promises for fear that abandoning reason may just hurt his family? What then, o wise one?
I have no idea what you're talking about or why you're asking me this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 600 by Phat, posted 06-14-2019 5:24 AM Phat has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 623 of 3207 (855243)
06-17-2019 8:04 PM
Reply to: Message 602 by Tangle
06-14-2019 5:42 AM


Re: Topic Summary According to Thugzy
Tangle writes:
Sure, why wouldn't it?
Oh good; that's a start, at least. Some atheists don't want God to exist.
Ah, the catch. You know, the thing about real love is that it's unconditional. This god of yours that you're describing here, that demands our love whilst promising everlasting damnation if we don't is an evil narcissist.
1. God doesn't "demand" that we love Him. That would be pointless - God can do lots of things but He can't make us love Him.
2. Of course there are conditions for getting into Heaven! Do you think Ted Bundy and Adolf Hitler deserve to be in Heaven?
Being happier or not about a fact is irrelevant.
Ya coulda fooled me - if I didn't believe in God I wouldn't even want to be alive - hardly "irrelevant".
Life is simply all there is so I get on with it and normally feel grateful for it.
As far as I'm concerned, this life is really as ultimately meaningless as a dream that will be completely forgotten as soon as I die (although the consequences of this life are eternal). After that, my real life begins. Can't wait!
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 602 by Tangle, posted 06-14-2019 5:42 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 626 by Tangle, posted 06-18-2019 4:16 AM Dredge has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 624 of 3207 (855244)
06-17-2019 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 605 by Stile
06-14-2019 10:14 AM


Re: Of Spirits and the After-Life
Stile writes:
Of course, in order for us to know this, you'll have to show it. Can you do that?
Exhibit A - abiogenesis.
When I'm on my death-bed, I will be comforted of a life well lived, not wasting a second on anything that didn't exist; living real - in reality - every moment full of the greatest of meanings and purpose.
Well, you're very easily pleased, I must say! As for me, a few years of meaningless activity is not nearly enough. For life to have meaning, it must first of all be eternal, or at least lead to eternity.
.
When your average Christian is on their death-bed, they will be overwhelmed by fear and sadness... the doubt of being wrong about God's existence will dawn and they will go screaming into oblivion, knowing that they wasted so much time.
You hope ...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 605 by Stile, posted 06-14-2019 10:14 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 628 by Stile, posted 06-18-2019 8:15 AM Dredge has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 625 of 3207 (855245)
06-17-2019 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 615 by Stile
06-17-2019 8:58 AM


Re: Of Spirits and the After-Life
I would have assumed that, in the context of the OP, "spirituality" would at the very least include the concept of some kind of life after death.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 615 by Stile, posted 06-17-2019 8:58 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 629 by Stile, posted 06-18-2019 8:21 AM Dredge has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


(1)
Message 626 of 3207 (855258)
06-18-2019 4:16 AM
Reply to: Message 623 by Dredge
06-17-2019 8:04 PM


Re: Topic Summary According to Thugzy
Dredge writes:
Some atheists don't want God to exist.
I've never met one that wouldn't like a nice one. But that's never the option.
God doesn't "demand" that we love Him.
These kind of discussions are difficult with believers because they all believe different things about what god is and what he can do. All us normals can do is point out what it says in their particular book and/or what we've been told by their multi-various shamans
One of the things you tell us is that god demands we love and worship him.
“You shall love the Lord your god with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.” Deuteronomy 6:5
“I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore, choose life, that both you and your descendants may live.” Deuteronomy 30:19
Love me or else, is not love.
2. Of course there are conditions for getting into Heaven! Do you think Ted Bundy and Adolf Hitler deserve to be in Heaven?
Well of course in the fiction you have created it needs a heaven and hell to function. But you forget that God created the evil in the first place.
“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.”
Isaiah 45:7
Ya coulda fooled me - if I didn't believe in God I wouldn't even want to be alive - hardly "irrelevant".
And that's the reason you have to believe in your imaginary god - it makes you feel better. Doesn't work for me.
As far as I'm concerned, this life is really as ultimately meaningless as a dream that will be completely forgotten as soon as I die
It's really sad that you have no meaning in the only life you have. I'm pretty sure that your imaginary god that loves you would find that sad and wonder where he went wrong with you.
After that, my real life begins.
Pure wishful thinking I'm afraid, but at least you won't be disappointed. You won't be anything.
Can't wait!
That feeling is a concern for the rest of us. People like Faith pray for armageddon - which is at least pointless - but others physically attempt to bring it on. Believers can be dangerous if they don't value their life here on earth.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 623 by Dredge, posted 06-17-2019 8:04 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 627 by Faith, posted 06-18-2019 4:51 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 631 by Dredge, posted 06-19-2019 9:38 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 672 by Dredge, posted 06-20-2019 7:24 PM Tangle has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1434 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 627 of 3207 (855259)
06-18-2019 4:51 AM
Reply to: Message 626 by Tangle
06-18-2019 4:16 AM


Re: Topic Summary According to Thugzy
You say "Faith prays for Armageddon?" Where do you get such krazy ideas?
And I really don't think there's all that much difference between the theologies of dredge and thugs and me. Insofar as we believe in what the Bible says anyway, because it SAYS "God is love" and "God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son that whosoever believeth on Him should not perish but have everlasting llfe." That's a promise to love us isn't it? And "We love Him because He first loved us." In other words He gives us the means to fulfill that command to love Him. He loves us first and makes us know it.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 626 by Tangle, posted 06-18-2019 4:16 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 630 by Tangle, posted 06-18-2019 8:41 AM Faith has replied
 Message 632 by Dredge, posted 06-19-2019 9:43 PM Faith has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 628 of 3207 (855270)
06-18-2019 8:15 AM
Reply to: Message 624 by Dredge
06-17-2019 8:18 PM


Re: Of Spirits and the After-Life
Dredge writes:
Exhibit A - abiogenesis.
Abiogenesis is evidence towards God not existing again.
One more place to look for God where none is found. So - thanks?
As for me, a few years of meaningless activity is not nearly enough.
I absolutely agree.
For life to have meaning, it must first of all be eternal, or at least lead to eternity.
Perhaps for you.
This would be inconsequential for me.
For me, for life to have meaning, I need to make one and feel it in my bones.
Such a thing cannot happen from any external being doing anything... and "life being eternal" is irrelevant.
Good luck to you and your search for meaning, though!
Dredge writes:
Stile writes:
When your average Christian is on their death-bed, they will be overwhelmed by fear and sadness... the doubt of being wrong about God's existence will dawn and they will go screaming into oblivion, knowing that they wasted so much time.
You hope ...
Not at all, actually. It's really quite sad.
I do, however, hope that you have a nice day.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 624 by Dredge, posted 06-17-2019 8:18 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 638 by Dredge, posted 06-19-2019 10:43 PM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 629 of 3207 (855272)
06-18-2019 8:21 AM
Reply to: Message 625 by Dredge
06-17-2019 8:26 PM


Re: Of Spirits and the After-Life
Dredge writes:
I would have assumed that, in the context of the OP, "spirituality" would at the very least include the concept of some kind of life after death.
Alas, since I am the write of the OP I can confirm that you are mistaken.
Although I am not spiritually against the idea of life after death - I do know that it doesn't exist for the same reasons I know God doesn't exist.
I, myself, sometimes like to think of a life after death - with awareness that this is irrational. It is an interesting and sometimes heart-warming exercise.
The after life as I think of it, though, tends to be without God.
But, to get back to what the OP (me) means by spirituality:
quote:
In modern times, the term both spread to other religious traditions and broadened to refer to a wider range of experience, including a range of esoteric traditions and religious traditions. Modern usages tend to refer to a subjective experience of a sacred dimension[8] and the "deepest values and meanings by which people live", often in a context separate from organized religious institutions, such as a belief in a supernatural (beyond the known and observable) realm, personal growth, a quest for an ultimate or sacred meaning, religious experience, or an encounter with one's own "inner dimension".
(Bolding by me to mark the parts that seem obviously notable and desirable)
Spirituality - Wikipedia
Everything that's not bolded in that description, to me... only seems like ways to reach/obtain the bolded parts anyway.
If you want to claim that 'spirituality' should be more focused on the non-bolded parts rather than the bolded sections... that's fair enough.
But then you also have to defend why anyone should care.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 625 by Dredge, posted 06-17-2019 8:26 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 637 by Dredge, posted 06-19-2019 10:42 PM Stile has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


(4)
Message 630 of 3207 (855276)
06-18-2019 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 627 by Faith
06-18-2019 4:51 AM


Re: Topic Summary According to Thugzy
Faith writes:
You say "Faith prays for Armageddon?" Where do you get such krazy ideas?
I dunno Faith maybe it was something you said?
And I really don't think there's all that much difference between the theologies of dredge and thugs and me. Insofar as we believe in what the Bible says anyway
You don't believe in the same things at all. I've no real idea what Phat believes, it seems to depend on his mental health state at any particular time - just at the moment he thinks he's an online, fire and brimstone evangelist. But you're a biblical literalist and Calvinist and fuck knows what Dredge is - he makes it up as he goes along, but he's apparently not a YEC like you.
because it SAYS "God is love" and "God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son that whosoever believeth on Him should not perish but have everlasting llfe." That's a promise to love us isn't it?
No it's the opposite of a promise of love, it's a superstitious, murderous blood sacrifice for no sane reason.
And "We love Him because He first loved us." In other words He gives us the means to fulfill that command to love Him. He loves us first and makes us know it.
I know what love is Faith and it isn't a demand to be loved or I'll send you to everlasting fire. Nor is it love to torture my relative to death with pancreatic cancer. If your god exists he hates us all to death

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 627 by Faith, posted 06-18-2019 4:51 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 633 by Dredge, posted 06-19-2019 9:57 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 711 by Faith, posted 06-22-2019 9:31 PM Tangle has not replied

  
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