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Author Topic:   A test for claimed knowledge of how macroevolution occurs
Taq
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Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


(1)
Message 331 of 785 (855282)
06-18-2019 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 322 by Faith
06-18-2019 5:31 AM


Re: My model: It's way different from evolution
Faith writes:
Of course it needs evidence, but it is a coherent model . . .
No, it isn't. Your model doesn't explain the pattern of differences between the genomes of species where transitions outnumber transversions and differences at CpG sites has the greatest number of differences relative to available bases. Your model also doesn't explain why we see more differences in introns than in exons when comparing genomes from many species. Your model also doesn't explain why we see a nested hierarchy.
Your model can't explain the observations we see, so it isn't coherent.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by Faith, posted 06-18-2019 5:31 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 333 by Tanypteryx, posted 06-18-2019 11:29 AM Taq has not replied
 Message 334 by Faith, posted 06-18-2019 1:56 PM Taq has replied

  
PaulK
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Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 332 of 785 (855284)
06-18-2019 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 322 by Faith
06-18-2019 5:31 AM


Re: My model: It's way different from evolution
I’ll just note that the evidence is strongly against some points - indeed we can say that the assertion that there are no useful mutations is definitely untrue - and there are a lot more details needed.
I don’t think you have any idea of how you could get the same range of disease resistance with only two alleles per locus, for instance. Don’t forget that in that case half the population would be homozygous at any given locus.
Nor do I think you have any sensible explanation for why the genetic difference in the peppered moth would look like a transposition (which is a known mechanism of mutation).
A coherent model which is at odds with the evidence and heavily relies on ad hoc assumptions to try and cope with that is scientifically worthless and doesn’t deserve consideration. I don’t think that a single point in your model can be shown to be true or even likely.

This message is a reply to:
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Tanypteryx
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Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


(3)
Message 333 of 785 (855286)
06-18-2019 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 331 by Taq
06-18-2019 11:13 AM


Re: My model: It's way different from evolution
No, it isn't. Your model doesn't explain the pattern of differences between the genomes of species where transitions outnumber transversions and differences at CpG sites has the greatest number of differences relative to available bases. Your model also doesn't explain why we see more differences in introns than in exons when comparing genomes from many species. Your model also doesn't explain why we see a nested hierarchy.
Your model can't explain the observations we see, so it isn't coherent.
Another big one is she cannot explain the pattern of endogenous retroviral (ERV) insertions seen in genomes of most organisms that also matches the nested hierarchy.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 331 by Taq, posted 06-18-2019 11:13 AM Taq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 335 by Faith, posted 06-18-2019 1:56 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 334 of 785 (855294)
06-18-2019 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 331 by Taq
06-18-2019 11:13 AM


Of course it needs evidence, but it is a coherent model . . . -
No, it isn't. Your model doesn't explain the pattern of differences between the genomes of species where transitions outnumber transversions and differences at CpG sites has the greatest number of differences relative to available bases.
I don't see a need to be able to explain that pattern of differences. It fits your model, not mine.
Your model also doesn't explain why we see more differences in introns than in exons when comparing genomes from many species.
Same answer as above.
Your model also doesn't explain why we see a nested hierarchy.
It has never made any sense to me why evolution should form such a coherent pattern as a nested hierarchy anyway, so I don't see why I have to account for that either.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 331 by Taq, posted 06-18-2019 11:13 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 339 by PaulK, posted 06-18-2019 5:10 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 340 by Taq, posted 06-18-2019 5:22 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 335 of 785 (855295)
06-18-2019 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 333 by Tanypteryx
06-18-2019 11:29 AM


Same answer as above. None of it applies to my model though it may apply to evolution, though in the case of the nested hierarchy that doesn't even make much sense.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 333 by Tanypteryx, posted 06-18-2019 11:29 AM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 336 by Tanypteryx, posted 06-18-2019 1:58 PM Faith has replied
 Message 341 by Taq, posted 06-18-2019 5:24 PM Faith has replied
 Message 391 by RAZD, posted 06-21-2019 11:55 AM Faith has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


(2)
Message 336 of 785 (855296)
06-18-2019 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 335 by Faith
06-18-2019 1:56 PM


Great answer!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 335 by Faith, posted 06-18-2019 1:56 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 337 by Admin, posted 06-18-2019 4:19 PM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied
 Message 338 by Faith, posted 06-18-2019 4:56 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 337 of 785 (855310)
06-18-2019 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 336 by Tanypteryx
06-18-2019 1:58 PM


Not Faith's fault. I mistyped the wildcarding at the end of one word, "\S?*" instead of just "\S*". The "\S" is any non-white-space character, so "\S*" mhatches 0 or more of non-white space characters, in other words, all the characters until the end of the word, include characters like "-" that Faith was using to avoid the filter. The erroneous "\S?*" matches one non-white-space character followed by 0 or more of any other character, i.e., it matches the entire message.
It's fixed now. Again, apologies to Faith. I'll try to be more careful in the future, but when proofreading one can easily miss mistakes in regular expressions.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 338 of 785 (855312)
06-18-2019 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 336 by Tanypteryx
06-18-2019 1:58 PM


So much love I always get from you, and the Cheers section too.

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 Message 336 by Tanypteryx, posted 06-18-2019 1:58 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 339 of 785 (855315)
06-18-2019 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 334 by Faith
06-18-2019 1:56 PM


quote:
I don't see a need to be able to explain that pattern of differences. It fits your model, not mine.
That’s an admission that the evidence is on our side.
quote:
It has never made any sense to me why evolution should form such a coherent pattern as a nested hierarchy anyway, so I don't see why I have to account for that either.
It is quite simple really. When a population splits into two or more species both populations will - in general - retain the ancestral traits, while developing new traits of their own. A nested hierarchy is the expected outcome of evolution. And I have to point out that your are not absolved of explaining the evidence just because you don’t understand your opponent’s explanation.
The nested hierarchy speaks very strongly against separate creations which can’t be expected to neatly fall into that pattern.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 334 by Faith, posted 06-18-2019 1:56 PM Faith has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 340 of 785 (855319)
06-18-2019 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 334 by Faith
06-18-2019 1:56 PM


Faith writes:
I don't see a need to be able to explain that pattern of differences. It fits your model, not mine.
The pattern of differences are observations. If your model can't explain what we see in nature then it isn't a coherent model.
It has never made any sense to me why evolution should form such a coherent pattern as a nested hierarchy anyway, . . .
It makes sense to anyone with a basic understanding of how genetics and inheritance works. For complex eukaryotes you can only inherit DNA vertically, from ancestor to descendant. Therefore, mutations that happen in a lineage stay in that lineage. This produces a pattern of shared DNA inherited from a common ancestor and lineage specific mutations. This is a nested hierarchy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 334 by Faith, posted 06-18-2019 1:56 PM Faith has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 341 of 785 (855322)
06-18-2019 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 335 by Faith
06-18-2019 1:56 PM


Faith writes:
None of it applies to my model though it may apply to evolution, though in the case of the nested hierarchy that doesn't even make much sense.
Why wouldn't the observation of ERV's in different genomes apply to your model? If your model can't incorporate the facts of biology, then it isn't a coherent model.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 335 by Faith, posted 06-18-2019 1:56 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 342 by Faith, posted 06-18-2019 5:48 PM Taq has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 342 of 785 (855328)
06-18-2019 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 341 by Taq
06-18-2019 5:24 PM


It's meaningless in my model. There are all kinds of facts that can be ignored in contexts where they are irrelevant. I guess it means something in your model, but not in mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 341 by Taq, posted 06-18-2019 5:24 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 343 by Taq, posted 06-18-2019 5:52 PM Faith has replied
 Message 351 by PaulK, posted 06-19-2019 12:35 AM Faith has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 343 of 785 (855333)
06-18-2019 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 342 by Faith
06-18-2019 5:48 PM


Faith writes:
It's meaningless in my model.
If observable facts are meaningless in your model then it isn't a coherent model.
There are all kinds of facts that can be ignored in contexts where they are irrelevant.
Can you explain why the genetic differences between species is irrelevant in your model? Don't the genetic differences between species explain the physical differences between species within your model?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 342 by Faith, posted 06-18-2019 5:48 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 344 by Faith, posted 06-18-2019 5:54 PM Taq has replied
 Message 346 by Faith, posted 06-18-2019 5:58 PM Taq has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 344 of 785 (855335)
06-18-2019 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 343 by Taq
06-18-2019 5:52 PM


That's silly. There are lots of observed facts that have no relevance whatever to a particular context.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 343 by Taq, posted 06-18-2019 5:52 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 345 by Taq, posted 06-18-2019 5:56 PM Faith has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 345 of 785 (855336)
06-18-2019 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 344 by Faith
06-18-2019 5:54 PM


Faith writes:
That's silly. There are lots of observed facts that have no relevance whatever to a particular context.
Why don't DNA sequences have any relevance in your model?
Are you saying that your model can't explain anything about genetics?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 344 by Faith, posted 06-18-2019 5:54 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 347 by Faith, posted 06-18-2019 6:01 PM Taq has not replied

  
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