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Author Topic:   Gay Marriage as an attack on Christianity
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1366 of 1484 (855320)
06-18-2019 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 1365 by Faith
06-18-2019 5:19 PM


Re: SCOTUS refuses to hear about "gay wedding cakes"
Faith writes:
Oh we'll be punished for it.
You'll claim you're being punished, like you always do when your ability to persecute is limited.

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1365 by Faith, posted 06-18-2019 5:19 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1367 of 1484 (855325)
06-18-2019 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1365 by Faith
06-18-2019 5:19 PM


Re: SCOTUS refuses to hear about "gay wedding cakes"
Faith writes:
Oh we'll be punished for it. I wonder if they'd put someone my age in a cell for that crime.
Hate to disappoint you yet again Faith, but there's no hope of martyrdom in that direction. You're quite free to say what the hell you like, nobody cares.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1365 by Faith, posted 06-18-2019 5:19 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1368 by Faith, posted 06-18-2019 5:43 PM Tangle has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1368 of 1484 (855326)
06-18-2019 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1367 by Tangle
06-18-2019 5:40 PM


Re: SCOTUS refuses to hear about "gay wedding cakes"
LGBT activists care. A lot.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1367 by Tangle, posted 06-18-2019 5:40 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1369 by Tangle, posted 06-18-2019 5:51 PM Faith has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1369 of 1484 (855331)
06-18-2019 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1368 by Faith
06-18-2019 5:43 PM


Re: SCOTUS refuses to hear about "gay wedding cakes"
Faith writes:
LGBT activists care. A lot.
So? You have a constitutional right to think and say what you like. There's no hope for you there.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1368 by Faith, posted 06-18-2019 5:43 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1370 by Faith, posted 06-18-2019 6:05 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1370 of 1484 (855344)
06-18-2019 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1369 by Tangle
06-18-2019 5:51 PM


Re: SCOTUS refuses to hear about "gay wedding cakes"
So one would think, but things are moving against that supposed right.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1369 by Tangle, posted 06-18-2019 5:51 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 1371 of 1484 (855346)
06-18-2019 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1362 by PaulK
06-18-2019 3:49 PM


Re: SCOTUS refuses to hear about "gay wedding cakes"
the First Amendment was never intended to make religious belief a carte blanche.
True, but it also never intended for gay marriage to be recognized at all. So we have to look at the spirit of what is intended and try to apply them to modern times.
I doubt that anyone on the Court wants to overturn precedent and open a massive can of worms. And overturning the lower court’s decision would do that. I wouldn’t be surprised if the Conservatives were all against hearing it because they didn’t want to be placeD in the position of affirming that decision.
So you mentioned that what does it matter if the other party isn't really injured. Obviously, what would it hurt the baker to make a cake with two men's name on it? Is he irreparably harmed by such an act? No, it just goes against his sincerely held beliefs. On the other hand, doesn't that same argument apply in reverse? Is that the only baker in 500 square miles? Can they not go to another bakery who would love to have their business? Obviously so... No one is in fact injured so much as they are offended.
We aren't talking about cakes so much as we are talking about principles. Can the law force a Christian man to bake a cake that goes against his beliefs in his own store? The right of a private business to refuse service has always been honored, except when it comes to civil rights issues. Yes, the business is private, but it is designed to be open to the free market. The government will challenge you if you decide to refuse service on the basis of being this or being that. The thing about this case was that the baker reportedly offered alternatives and did not outright refuse business. He just said he wasn't going to make that specific cake.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1362 by PaulK, posted 06-18-2019 3:49 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1372 by Theodoric, posted 06-18-2019 7:44 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 1377 by PaulK, posted 06-19-2019 12:27 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 1372 of 1484 (855353)
06-18-2019 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1371 by Hyroglyphx
06-18-2019 6:10 PM


Re: SCOTUS refuses to hear about "gay wedding cakes"
True, but it also never intended for gay marriage to be recognized at all.
What a lame argument. It was never even considered. Like slavery and women voting. So I guess you want to go back to complete original and intent? Black powder for you.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1371 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-18-2019 6:10 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1373 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-18-2019 7:50 PM Theodoric has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 1373 of 1484 (855355)
06-18-2019 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1372 by Theodoric
06-18-2019 7:44 PM


Re: SCOTUS refuses to hear about "gay wedding cakes"
What a lame argument. It was never even considered. Like slavery and women voting. So I guess you want to go back to complete original and intent? Black powder for you.
I guess you missed the point where I literally prefaced it that we need to view the intent and then to apply it to modern times.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1372 by Theodoric, posted 06-18-2019 7:44 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1374 by Theodoric, posted 06-18-2019 8:15 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 1374 of 1484 (855365)
06-18-2019 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1373 by Hyroglyphx
06-18-2019 7:50 PM


Re: SCOTUS refuses to hear about "gay wedding cakes"
My bad. Was sitting at Target field waiting Twins Red Sox game to start and thought I read full post. I concede my dumbassery.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1373 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-18-2019 7:50 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 1375 of 1484 (855377)
06-18-2019 10:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1360 by Hyroglyphx
06-18-2019 3:18 PM


Re: SCOTUS refuses to hear about "gay wedding cakes"
Its a tough....
Most of this case is pretty easy. States have the authority to enact laws prohibiting discrimination in public accomodations against members of traditionally marginalized groups, and religious beliefs don't create exemptions to this.
The "tough" part seems to be the question whether creating specifically a wedding cake for specifically a same sex wedding is an expression of acceptance.
Me, I don't think so, and I think Ginsburg and Sotomayor's dissent in Masterpiece is a good explanation why.

It says something about the qualities of our current president that the best argument anyone has made in his defense is that he didn’t know what he was talking about. -- Paul Krugman

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1360 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-18-2019 3:18 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1376 by Faith, posted 06-18-2019 11:08 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1376 of 1484 (855381)
06-18-2019 11:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1375 by Chiroptera
06-18-2019 10:04 PM


Re: SCOTUS refuses to hear about "gay wedding cakes"
The "tough" part seems to be the question whether creating specifically a wedding cake for specifically a same sex wedding is an expression of acceptance.
Me, I don't think so, and I think Ginsburg and Sotomayor's dissent in Masterpiece is a good explanation why.
NOBODY gets to define this except a Bible-believing Christian such as those who refused to serve a gay wedding, some five or six businesses altogether, makers of wedding cakes, designers of flower arrangements, and a wedding photographer. Judges and others can say whatever they want, it's the Bible believer who acts on his/her conscience who will obey God and nobody else and take whatever the secular society metes out for the "crime."
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1375 by Chiroptera, posted 06-18-2019 10:04 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1378 by AZPaul3, posted 06-19-2019 5:49 AM Faith has replied
 Message 1385 by Chiroptera, posted 06-19-2019 9:12 AM Faith has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1377 of 1484 (855382)
06-19-2019 12:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1371 by Hyroglyphx
06-18-2019 6:10 PM


Re: SCOTUS refuses to hear about "gay wedding cakes"
quote:
True, but it also never intended for gay marriage to be recognized at all. So we have to look at the spirit of what is intended and try to apply them to modern times.
I don’t think there is any question there. We are talking about a principle that was clearly intended against an attitude of the times.
quote:
So you mentioned that what does it matter if the other party isn't really injured. Obviously, what would it hurt the baker to make a cake with two men's name on it? Is he irreparably harmed by such an act? No, it just goes against his sincerely held beliefs. On the other hand, doesn't that same argument apply in reverse? Is that the only baker in 500 square miles? Can they not go to another bakery who would love to have their business? Obviously so... No one is in fact injured so much as they are offended.
The denial of service is already an injury, if a small one. And raising exceptions obviously creates more room for argument.
quote:
We aren't talking about cakes so much as we are talking about principles. Can the law force a Christian man to bake a cake that goes against his beliefs in his own store?
In most of these cases there is nothing about the cake itself that the baker disappproves of (and if there was it would be in the decoration, not the baking).
The legal question is whether the baker can refuse to provide service to people of a protected class because they are of a protected class. And as I pointed out that has already been answered. He can’t.
quote:
The right of a private business to refuse service has always been honored, except when it comes to civil rights issues.
And it seems obvious to me that this is a civil rights case.
quote:
The government will challenge you if you decide to refuse service on the basis of being this or being that. The thing about this case was that the baker reportedly offered alternatives and did not outright refuse business. He just said he wasn't going to make that specific cake.
Did they ? It certainly isn’t mentioned in the decision (pdf) of the Oregon Bureau of Labor and Industries
Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1371 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-18-2019 6:10 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 1378 of 1484 (855387)
06-19-2019 5:49 AM
Reply to: Message 1376 by Faith
06-18-2019 11:08 PM


Re: SCOTUS refuses to hear about "gay wedding cakes"
You have the right to believe as you want but not the right to act as you want. The rest of us get to decide how our people are treated.
This is a most compelling reason to grind your religion back into the stone age from whence it came and rid our society of its evil influence.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1376 by Faith, posted 06-18-2019 11:08 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1379 by Faith, posted 06-19-2019 6:49 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1379 of 1484 (855390)
06-19-2019 6:49 AM
Reply to: Message 1378 by AZPaul3
06-19-2019 5:49 AM


Re: SCOTUS refuses to hear about "gay wedding cakes"
I'm sure you will do what you can to grind us all down to something you find manageable, but that doesn't stop the fact that we obey God and not you, whatever "rights" you grant or don't grant. Do your worst.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1378 by AZPaul3, posted 06-19-2019 5:49 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1380 by Tangle, posted 06-19-2019 7:49 AM Faith has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(3)
Message 1380 of 1484 (855391)
06-19-2019 7:49 AM
Reply to: Message 1379 by Faith
06-19-2019 6:49 AM


Re: SCOTUS refuses to hear about "gay wedding cakes"
Faith writes:
Do your worst.
I think your wish for martyrdom is overly hopeful. Our 'worst' seems to be fining bakers that refuse to serve wedding cakes to gay people just because they're gay.
The thin end of that wedge would require a microscope to find.
No, sorry to disappoint you yet again, we simply can't summon up the enthusiasm to burn you at the stake. Carry on with your daft beliefs, no one cares.
Edited by Tangle, : Spellin'

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1379 by Faith, posted 06-19-2019 6:49 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1381 by Faith, posted 06-19-2019 8:11 AM Tangle has replied

  
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