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Author Topic:   Who Made God?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 394 of 868 (849441)
03-10-2019 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 393 by LamarkNewAge
03-09-2019 7:06 PM


Re: The never answered question will be asked again.
LNA writes:
Then how did God come about?
Some background details would be nice.
(Without any details outlining the process that came just before what we know as "the beginning", the "always existed" line will ONLY mean that God existed a good ways before man and our local Universe)
(scripture makes it very clear that "the beginning" is only relative to whatever - limited - reference point is being discussed)
I would think that you would have an opinion on this question since you always like googling a wide variety of religious texts and commentaries regarding non-Western Christian origins and beliefs.
Here is my 2 cent answer: (not from google, note)
Some believe that God originated in the imagination of humans.
Others believe that God has always existed and imagined/created us long before we were evolved enough to scratch our butt.
Evidence shows that humans began to write about gods and deities as soon as they were able to write.
Some believe though cannot objectively prove that God desired to communicate to us through the writings we ourselves made.
Evidently, either God encourages us to philosophize and question His character ....
or
God was entirely made up by humans.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 393 by LamarkNewAge, posted 03-09-2019 7:06 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 395 by ringo, posted 03-10-2019 2:21 PM Phat has replied
 Message 398 by LamarkNewAge, posted 03-10-2019 9:14 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 396 of 868 (849453)
03-10-2019 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 395 by ringo
03-10-2019 2:21 PM


Re: The never answered question will be asked again.
There could be a God who was not made up by humans and who has no desire whatsoever to communicate with us.
In which case Tangles advice to just go fishing is the most logical. Oh, and bring spare change for the homeless at the park.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 395 by ringo, posted 03-10-2019 2:21 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 397 by dwise1, posted 03-10-2019 4:47 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 399 of 868 (849467)
03-11-2019 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 398 by LamarkNewAge
03-10-2019 9:14 PM


Re: The never answered question will be asked again.
LNA writes:
But early humans tended to think that the "Universe" was all there was, I suppose.
(Not that people understood the planets and sun correctly).
Is'nt that true even today? I suppose that we can hypothetically imagine multiverses, but in a practical sense they are not any better understood than our own galaxy. Did you watch the Bill Nye video I posted a while back?
So my question is Whose "imagination" created Whom?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 398 by LamarkNewAge, posted 03-10-2019 9:14 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 400 of 868 (849468)
03-11-2019 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 397 by dwise1
03-10-2019 4:47 PM


Who Imagined Whom?
dwise1 writes:
That attitude you just expressed is like what I've been hearing from creationists for decades (at least the very few willing to begin to engage in a discussion): "I have this set of highly detailed specific beliefs (eg, young earth, Noah's Flood, specific sequences of historical events) that absolutely must be literally true. If even one of those beliefs is wrong, then they are all wrong and I should just completely give up." Seriously, they would emphatically and vehemently insist that that was the way it was and the only way it could possibly be.
Not at all. I don't agree with the all or nothing theory of belief. I'm all for imagining God the way that we can justify. After all, critics say that humans imagined him anyway...from the beginning of recorded thought. Personally, I do not believe that to be true.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 397 by dwise1, posted 03-10-2019 4:47 PM dwise1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 401 by Stile, posted 03-11-2019 11:10 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 402 of 868 (849477)
03-11-2019 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 401 by Stile
03-11-2019 11:10 AM


Re: Who Imagined Whom?
Its quite clear from scripture that humans have always sought to justify themselves rather than God. They simply use God as their answer as to why they justify themselves.
In war, may God be with us. (yet not supposedly with them. )
In morality, one must act a certain way or behave a certain way because of "God".
The book itself is presented as Gods word. Never is it suggested that some wish to justify all of us the way they justify themselves.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 401 by Stile, posted 03-11-2019 11:10 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 404 by Stile, posted 03-11-2019 3:30 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 403 of 868 (849478)
03-11-2019 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 395 by ringo
03-10-2019 2:21 PM


Re: The never answered question will be asked again.
There could also be a God who exists in communion with us who is undetectable. The function of such a God would be (from our standpoint) as a conscience and highest noble character...the things we "should" do rather than the things we instinctually do.
One aspect of the whole multiverse theory is expressed in the video the guy made to Bill Nye. TRANSCRIPT:
quote:
Austin: My name is Austin Bogner and I have a question about the multiverse. So if there does exist an infinite amount of universes, then mathematically there’s a 100 percent chance that there exists at least one universe out there in the multiverse that cannot support the idea of any other universe existing except for that one particular universe. And my question is: doesn’t this create a paradox in the multi-universe idea?
Bill Nye: Austin, you are asking a fabulous question about multiverses. The answer for me is: clearly I don’t know. This is to say, is it just a question of definition, that there is one universe and within it are subverses or multiverses? Or is it actually: everything that we know and see and can detect is nominally replicated at some other dimension or some other space beyond space that we are only able to imagine?
And the only reason we think that they might exist, these multiverses beyond space time, is because there’s no reason to exclude them. Like there’s no reason they couldn’t exist.
These are wonderful questions. I’ve seen many talks on this. I’ve gone to symposia about this. And I don’t know the answer.
However, we have the Spitzer space telescope. We have Hubble space telescope. We’re going to have James Webb space telescope. And these instruments along with ground-based telescopes are peering farther and farther into the past, looking at light that came from the Big Bang and the unknowable time, the Planck time, getting back that far.
And so what came before that? Is that even a meaningful question? Is it just our perception and the nature of our perception of time that limits our ability to understand what might be beyond our universe or not?
These are wonderful questions, but here’s what I’ll say: When you get a chance support space exploration, because learning more about the cosmos tells us more about ourselves and tells us more about where we all might have come from”And then ultimately, “Are we alone in all this?”, in the cosmos or in this universe or beyond. Whoa. That’s a great question man.
Now what struck me about this question are several things. First, once the math is introduced and the human brain can conceptualize something, it becomes more "real" than any God. Thus by virtue of the idea of infinity, any possibility can be hypothetically explained.(perhaps not justified, but only mathematically)
I would add that my belief sees God over all possible multiverses rather than simply one. Which only complicates the questions. ringo will tell me that I have no idea of knowing whether my belief is a product solely of my imagination or whether the probability of such a God actually exists.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 395 by ringo, posted 03-10-2019 2:21 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 405 of 868 (849481)
03-11-2019 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 404 by Stile
03-11-2019 3:30 PM


Re: Who Imagined Whom?
I mean like how fundamentalists think. They will say that the bedrock of their faith is belief. (Faith said that a lot. She would believe before anything else.) The book is used, as is God, to justify the belief. And the belief is used to justify God.
I think it would be much better if anyone trying to "use God as their answer as to why they justify themselves" in this sense would stop and try to "justify love" or any of the other examples I gave. Might make for a much less selfish population.
Perhaps this explains the mutation that humans who profess to be believers have that makes them often behave worse than unbelievers.
I would claim that to justify love is, in fact, justifying God. But I won't argue from a religious perspective. Keep the thoughts coming! I used your quote in a reply to RAZD.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 404 by Stile, posted 03-11-2019 3:30 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 412 by Stile, posted 03-12-2019 8:34 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 407 of 868 (849483)
03-11-2019 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 406 by ringo
03-11-2019 3:40 PM


Re: Who Imagined Whom?
perhaps if "God" attributed posts to the proper authors, He would be less likely hiding. But I get your point. You always make God the absolute last default option. Christianity must have scarred you somehow.
As to whether humans need God or not, the evidence will be if we are still trying to make Him up 500 years from now.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 406 by ringo, posted 03-11-2019 3:40 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 408 by ringo, posted 03-11-2019 3:55 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 409 of 868 (849490)
03-11-2019 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 408 by ringo
03-11-2019 3:55 PM


Re: Who Imagined Whom?
I predict that 500 years from now some of us will still be smoking too.
Which means that doing all the right things that are good for us, as well as obeying any commandments is just a pipe dream.
You likely would have let satan hang out in heaven were you in charge rather than booting him out.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 408 by ringo, posted 03-11-2019 3:55 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 410 by ringo, posted 03-11-2019 4:19 PM Phat has replied
 Message 411 by dwise1, posted 03-11-2019 6:03 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 413 of 868 (849542)
03-13-2019 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 410 by ringo
03-11-2019 4:19 PM


Re: Who Imagined Whom?
There is no Satan. He never was anything but a metaphor for our own imperfections - i.e. God's screw-up.
ok so lets run with that. IF we are responsible for our own actions, booting satan out of Heaven is a metaphor for not allowing compromise in our behavior. You claim people will still smoke 200 years from now, which is likely true. People will allow darkness and light to co-exist in their minds. The message always told us to choose this day whom we would serve. It offered us cigarettes and Salad. Blessing and cursing. It never suggested that we should allow both.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 410 by ringo, posted 03-11-2019 4:19 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 416 by ringo, posted 03-14-2019 11:42 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 414 of 868 (849543)
03-13-2019 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 412 by Stile
03-12-2019 8:34 AM


Re: Who Imagined Whom?
stile writes:
Use that belief to give yourself motivation for(...)claiming/lying about a 'search for truth about reality.
Im not sure I understand. Can you elaborate on this point?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 412 by Stile, posted 03-12-2019 8:34 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 417 by Stile, posted 03-15-2019 8:54 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 440 of 868 (855393)
06-19-2019 8:14 AM
Reply to: Message 439 by jar
06-18-2019 8:43 PM


Not A Chance
If what you say is true, you do not really believe in a God who exists outside of your imagination.
If I understand what you have written previously, you would say that you believe yet do not know, which is honest but which limits the commitment of your belief.
If I were to say, for example, that I believe in God but that there is a high probability that I am wrong, I am simply reducing my belief to a finite mathematical possibility---a chance, as it were.
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 439 by jar, posted 06-18-2019 8:43 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 441 by ringo, posted 06-19-2019 12:00 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 442 by jar, posted 06-19-2019 2:37 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 443 of 868 (855431)
06-19-2019 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 442 by jar
06-19-2019 2:37 PM


Re: Not A Chance
Thuzy, replying to jar writes:
If what you say is true, you do not really believe in a God who exists outside of your imagination.
The proper answer here is to say "How can I?" ringo sums it up:
Belief is always limited to what we don't know.
Thugzy, to jar writes:
If I understand what you have written previously, you would say that you believe yet do not know...
Whereupon jar shoots back:
It's been obvious for almost two decades that you do not understand what I have written or even most of what you have posted.
And I call nonsense! I know your arguments better than anyone else here at EvC, though you might have a case in that I don't fully understand what I post(quite often, anyway) but I am making a valiant attempt to further explain my position.
Thugzy, earlier responding to jar writes:
If I were to say, for example, that I believe in God but that there is a high probability that I am wrong, I am simply reducing my belief to a finite mathematical possibility---a chance, as it were.
Whereupon jar responds:
I do not believe in a God or god that anyone can or has imagined. How many Gods are described in the Bible stories themselves? When two entirely different and mutually exclusive gods are described as God in the very first book of the Bible can there be any other reasonable conclusion than that both descriptions are simply the creation of the authors and editors and redactors?
Yes. We argue that the Bible is divinely inspired. You guys critically examine it and refuse to place it on a pedestal. This makes for a good argument, at any rate.
Let's re-examine that transcript, if for nothing else to contrast the argument that RC Sproul makes with the critically detached approach which you and perhaps ringo take.
RC Sproul Lecture(edited) writes:
The great Augustine in the fourth century made the comment, carefully now, think carefully, that God ordains, at least in some sense, everything that comes to pass. It may be in a passive sense, what some people call God's will of permission.
It's a little bit misleading, that term as if He gives His endorsement or sanction on your sin.
He permits your sin in the sense that He doesn't stop you from doing it.
ringo thinks this makes for an evil God, seeing as how He has the power to prevent many things which are allowed. And you critics could further argue that I too am arguing in favor of a Calvinist God, seeing as how I use Sprouls argument, to begin with. I would argue that God only created the possibility of evil which became actualized once Lucifer chose it--a dogmatic hypothetical argument yet in my mind a good one!
RC writes:
He doesn’t sanction it, but any time that you commit a sin, God at that moment always had the power to prevent you from doing it. He could have squashed you like a bug, taken the breath out of your lungs at that minute...and stopped you from doing it, and the fact that He didn't intervene, that He didn't intrude, the fact that He decided to let you do it, not with His blessing, but to give you the ability to do it without preventing you from doing it, in a certain sense, you see, He chose that it should come to pass, because He is absolutely sovereign over everything that happens. And I said, "Do you realize that if there's one maverick molecule running loose in this cosmos beyond the pale, beyond the scope of God's sovereign control and authority, you have no reason as a Christian to believe a single promise of the future that God has made?
Critics will say at this point that Sproul is playing fast and loose with the belief, assuming that he knows how God thinks. Let's allow his argument to fully develop, however.
RC writes:
One maverick molecule could destroy all of the plans, not only of mice and men but of Almighty God if God does not ordain whatsoever comes to pass.
Remember when you were children, you learned a little story:
"For want of the nail, the shoe was lost.
For want of the shoe, the horse was lost.
For want of the horse, the rider was lost.
For want of the rider, the battle was lost.
For want of the battle, the war was lost, all because of one nail."
When I was a boy, one of my heroes was a race driver by the name of Bill Vukovich, who was
killed in the Indianapolis 500. When that super expensive piece of machinery, a prototype, costing tens of thousands of dollars to build and construct, failed in a turn because a 10 cent cotter pin broke.
A grain of sand in the kidney of Oliver Cromwell changed the course of history.
A piece of lead in the brain of John F. Kennedy changed the course of American history.
The battle of Fort Duquesne, the French and Indian war, a young lieutenant had five horses shot out from under him and one bullet from an enemy rifle went through his shirt as it flapped in the breeze and it went in one side of his shirt and out the other side of the shirt without even creasing the skin on his back, and he survived that battle, and George Washington became the first president of the United States. You know, a tenth of an inch and he wouldn't have survived that battle of Fort Duquesne.
But by chance he made it, through the fortunes of circumstances.
Kennedy was in the wrong place at the wrong time . I don't know.
One maverick molecule outside the authority of God's sovereign control could thwart His plans and prevent the return of Christ, could prevent the vindication of faith that you hold dear. Beloved, there is no such thing as chance.
I agree with this argument. There is no way that the God described could coexist in a universe with random chance. Unless, of course, He was Loki the trickster. Anyway, let's continue analyzing RC Sprouls lecture:
RC Sproul writes:
I was in a discussion once with a professor at Harvard University.
He taught in the graduate school at Harvard in the field of philosophy of science.
And we were talking about the origin of the cosmos, and he didn't believe in God.
And I said, "Well, where do you think the universe came from?" And he said, "Well, the universe was created by chance."
And I said, you know, "The universe was created by chance? I'm not sure I understand what you mean." I said, "Are you telling me that the power supply for everything that is... the Big Bang...of the entire universe, that it was ultimately caused by chance?"
And he said, "Yes." I said, "That's amazing!" I said, "Don't you realize that chance can't do anything?" He said, "What do you mean?"
And I said, "Well, let me show you what I mean." And I took a coin out of my hand, out of my pocket and I said, "I'll say to you here,
if I took a 50 cent piece and balanced it on my thumb, and I said to you, I'm gonna flip this coin up in the air, what are the chances that it comes up head or tails?
What're the chances?"
Hmm? Go ahead. One in two. What's the percentage?
50-50. "No, no, no, no, no, 50-50."
Now listen to what I said. I said if I flip the coin what are the chances that it comes up heads or tails? A 100%, unless it stands on its head somehow. You know, I fooled you, didn’t I?
Ha, ha .
Okay what we mean though, is I said, "Okay if I flip that coin, what are the chances
that it will come up heads?" 50-50, you know 50% chance, because there are only two options and only two sides of the coin. And so we say the odds are, the chances are that it will come up heads 50% of the time.
Now what I asked this gentleman from Harvard was, "How much influence does chance exert
on the flip of the coin? What causes that coin to come up heads?
Does it have anything to do with where I start, whether it's heads up or tails up?
How much pressure I exert with my thumb, the density of the atmosphere, how many revolutions it makes, whether I catch it here, here or here, and after I catch it, whether I turn
it over or don't turn it over." There are all those variables.
We could add to those variables, so many complexities that would drive us nuts, trying to predict how it's gonna turn out. But we can cut the Gordian knot, we can reduce the options to the simple options that are there mathematically. The mathematical possibilities are there could be one in two, and so I say, the chances are 50-50 that it's going to come up heads.
But how much power, how much force does chance exert? Absolutely none.
And I said to that professor, "Chance cannot do anything, because chance isn't anything."
Which is why I use the quote in my signature.
RC writes:
He said, "What do you mean?"
I said, "The word chance is a word that we use, a cipher, a symbol to describe mathematical
possibilities. You're now giving to chance not just an empty word to describe possibilities, you're giving it being, power, ability to do work."
I said, "Chance can do nothing because chance is not a thing. It's not an entity. It is no thing."
Let me say it again, "It is no thing." Faster, "It is no thing." Even faster, "It is nothing! Do you see that?
Chance has no being, and if it has no being, it has no power. For something to do something, it first must be."
And when I said that, that good professor went like this, "Yes, of course, what could
be more obvious. I can't believe I made that mistake."
Isn't it interesting that some of the most foolish mistakes are the kinds of mistakes
made by the most learned and brilliant of people?
Comments?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 442 by jar, posted 06-19-2019 2:37 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 444 by Tangle, posted 06-19-2019 6:12 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 446 by jar, posted 06-19-2019 8:11 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 447 by Theodoric, posted 06-19-2019 9:03 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 457 of 868 (855476)
06-20-2019 2:25 AM
Reply to: Message 456 by Tangle
06-20-2019 2:11 AM


The Evidence Is The Believers Themselves
Tangle writes:
We'll let you know if/when we've worked it out.
Meanwhile, what has it got to do with nailing an ape to a cross?
Scoffers.
I doubt many of you will watch this evangelist with no arms and no legs explain why Jesus (whom you callously call an ape) sparked a purpose in his life. You all want evidence? This evangelist is evidence.
Theodoric will no doubt demand that I stop "preaching" but he has every right to ignore my post.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 456 by Tangle, posted 06-20-2019 2:11 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 458 by Tangle, posted 06-20-2019 2:37 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 459 by Faith, posted 06-20-2019 2:41 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 471 by Theodoric, posted 06-20-2019 8:37 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 467 of 868 (855493)
06-20-2019 6:56 AM
Reply to: Message 463 by AZPaul3
06-20-2019 3:45 AM


Re: The Evidence Is The Believers Themselves
Faith writes:
... but the Fall is why there is death, disease, and suffering in this world.
AZPaul3 writes:
There is death, disease, and suffering in this world because of entropy. Everything changes. Everything dies. All quite natural. All quite normal.
Unfortunately, this 6th mass extinction is our own doing and may very well claim us as casualties.
Faith writes:
Entropy is one of the results of the Fall. Nothing in this world is natural and healthy since the Fall, but of course, you have no way of knowing that. I do, though. We lost the perfection of the original Creation at the Fall, but it will be restored when Jesus returns.
And I don't know what you mean by "this sixth extinction," but all such things are the result of the Fall.
Perhaps he means this:
Wiki writes:
The Holocene extinction, otherwise referred to as the sixth mass extinction or Anthropocene extinction, is a current event, and is one of the most significant extinction events in the history of the Earth. This ongoing extinction of species coincides with the present Holocene epoch and is a result of human activity.
Of course, AZPaul3 does not believe in stories from the Bible nor the Fall, but apparently, he does knowingly or unknowingly believe in a god of forces. Note: NKJV and NIV refer to a "god of fortresses whereas KJV refers to a god of forces. Some could attribute this homage to "Mother Nature"...
Wiki writes:
In Greek mythology, Gaia (/e./ or /a./; from Ancient Greek —, a poetical form of G, "land" or "earth"),[1] also spelled Gaea (/d’i/), is the personification of the Earth[2] and one of the Greek primordial deities. Gaia is the ancestral mother of all life: the primal Mother Earth goddess. She is the immediate parent of Uranus (the sky), from whose sexual union she bore the Titans (themselves parents of many of the Olympian gods) and the Giants, and of Pontus (the sea), from whose union she bore the primordial sea gods. Her equivalent in the Roman pantheon was Terra.[3]
AZPaul3 writes:
Compared to nature, your god is a teddy bear. An ugly mean, bloodthirsty teddy bear. But Ma Nature is the absolute most badass killer of all time. Nothing survives her embrace. Not even gods.
Let the record show that AZPaul3 knowing, unknowingly, tongue-in-cheek or sarcastically refers to the understanding of science as Mother nature, "a badass...stronger than any gods. The secular peanut gallery pounds the table and demands evidence! We refer them to what is being written and what has been written. Meanwhile, the outside observers note that the secular humanists get quite angry at our absolute truth claims, saying that we are merely asserting literary mythos as factual. But lets again examine AZPaul3's statement earlier:
AZPaul3 writes:
Compared to nature, your god is a teddy bear. (...) But Ma Nature is the absolute most badass killer of all time. Nothing survives her embrace. Not even gods.
Ever heard of the "god of forces" mentioned in Daniel?
Dan 11:29-12:4 writes:
The Northern King's Blasphemies
"At the appointed time, he shall return and go toward the south, but it shall not be like the former or the latter. 30 For ships from Cyprus shall come against him; therefore, he shall be grieved, and return in rage against the holy covenant, and do damage.
"So he shall return and show regard for those who forsake the holy covenant. 31 And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation. 32 Those who do wickedly against the covenant he shall corrupt with flattery, but the people who know their God shall be strong, and carry out great exploits. 33 And those of the people who understand shall instruct many; yet for many days they shall fall by sword and flame, captivity and plundering. 34 Now when they fall, they shall be aided with a little help; but many shall join with them by intrigue. 35 And some of those of understanding shall fall, to refine them, purify them, and make them white, until the time of the end; because it is still for the appointed time.
36 "Then the king shall do according to his own will: he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished; for what has been determined shall be done. 37 He shall regard neither the God of his fathers nor the desire of women, nor regard any god; for he shall exalt himself above them all. 38 But in their place, he shall honor a god of fortresses; and a god which his fathers did not know he shall honor with gold and silver, with precious stones and pleasant things. 39 Thus he shall act against the strongest fortresses with a foreign god, which he shall acknowledge, and advance its glory; and he shall cause them to rule over many, and divide the land for gain.
The Northern King's Conquests
"At the time of the end the king of the South shall attack him; and the king of the North shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter the countries, overwhelm them, and pass through. 41 He shall also enter the Glorious Land, and many countries shall be overthrown; but these shall escape from his hand: Edom, Moab, and the prominent people of Ammon. 42 He shall stretch out his hand against the countries, and the land of Egypt shall not escape. 43 He shall have power over the treasures of gold and silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt; also, the Libyans and Ethiopians shall follow at his heels. 44 But news from the east and the north shall trouble him; therefore, he shall go out with great fury to destroy and annihilate many. 45 And he shall plant the tents of his palace between the seas and the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and no one will help him.
So who could we shoehorn in as the "King of the North? How about Putin? Let's see what he is doing lately over in Russia--
7,000 Churches Fasting, Praying Over Terrifying New Persecution Law Recently enacted a bit over two years ago, this bill from our King Of The North toughens punishment for what is called "organized mass unrest."
Furthermore, Great Commission Ministries Chairman Hanny Haukka tells Charisma News the law entails:
  • Foreign guests are not permitted to speak in churches unless they have a "work permit" from Russian authorities
  • If a friend or relative from outside Russia wishes to share his/her faith in your home, the guest will be fined and expelled from Russia.
  • Any discussion of God with non-believers is considered missionary activity and will be punishable.
  • Missionary activity will be permitted by special government permission. Example: If one traveling on a train shares his faith without written permission, the offender will be taken into police custody for the duration of the journey and will be fined 50,000 rubles ($1,000).
  • Offenders from the age of 14-years-old will be subject to prosecution
  • Religious activity is no longer permitted in private homes. Most churches in Russia meet in homes.
  • Every citizen is obligated to report religious activity of neighbors to the authorities. Failure to be an informant is punishable by law.
  • One may pray and read the Bible at home but not in the presence of a non-believing person. You will be breaking the law and be punished.
  • If the church has purchased a property, it cannot be converted into a place of worship.
  • In church buildings, it is not permitted to invite people to turn to God. Worship services are permitted but making a non-believer a follower of Christ is against the law.
  • Daniel 12:1 writes:
    "At that time Michael shall stand up,
    The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
    And there shall be a time of trouble,
    Such as never was since there was a nation,
    Even to that time.
    And at that time your people shall be delivered,
    Every one who is found written in the book.
    2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
    Some to everlasting life,
    Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
    3 Those who are wise shall shine
    Like the brightness of the sky,
    And those who turn many to righteousness
    Like the stars forever and ever.
    4 "But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase."
    NKJV
    Comments?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 463 by AZPaul3, posted 06-20-2019 3:45 AM AZPaul3 has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 468 by Pressie, posted 06-20-2019 7:16 AM Phat has replied
     Message 474 by AZPaul3, posted 06-20-2019 11:40 AM Phat has not replied
     Message 475 by Faith, posted 06-20-2019 11:42 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
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