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Author Topic:   Who Made God?
Tangle
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Posts: 7721
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 466 of 862 (855492)
06-20-2019 4:45 AM
Reply to: Message 462 by Faith
06-20-2019 3:27 AM


Re: The Evidence Is The Believers Themselves
Faith writes:

Every time you say God CREATED the misery I'm going to answer you about the Fall,

And every time you tell us this childish, evil fairytale I’ll quote you your own god’s words from your own book

Isaiah 45:7 King James Version (KJV)

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

no matter how much of your snark you throw at me, because you haven't learned the theology at all.

I’ve learned your nasty little fake-theocracy. I utterly reject it for the non-Christian immorality that it is.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 462 by Faith, posted 06-20-2019 3:27 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14145
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 467 of 862 (855493)
06-20-2019 6:56 AM
Reply to: Message 463 by AZPaul3
06-20-2019 3:45 AM


Re: The Evidence Is The Believers Themselves
Faith writes:

... but the Fall is why there is death, disease, and suffering in this world.


AZPaul3 writes:

There is death, disease, and suffering in this world because of entropy. Everything changes. Everything dies. All quite natural. All quite normal.
Unfortunately, this 6th mass extinction is our own doing and may very well claim us as casualties.

Faith writes:

Entropy is one of the results of the Fall. Nothing in this world is natural and healthy since the Fall, but of course, you have no way of knowing that. I do, though. We lost the perfection of the original Creation at the Fall, but it will be restored when Jesus returns.
And I don't know what you mean by "this sixth extinction," but all such things are the result of the Fall.

Perhaps he means this:
Wiki writes:

The Holocene extinction, otherwise referred to as the sixth mass extinction or Anthropocene extinction, is a current event, and is one of the most significant extinction events in the history of the Earth. This ongoing extinction of species coincides with the present Holocene epoch and is a result of human activity.

Of course, AZPaul3 does not believe in stories from the Bible nor the Fall, but apparently, he does knowingly or unknowingly believe in a god of forces. Note: NKJV and NIV refer to a "god of fortresses whereas KJV refers to a god of forces. Some could attribute this homage to "Mother Nature"...
Wiki writes:

In Greek mythology, Gaia (/ˈɡeɪ.ə/ or /ˈɡaɪ.ə/; from Ancient Greek Γαῖα, a poetical form of Γῆ Gē, "land" or "earth"),[1] also spelled Gaea (/ˈdʒiːə/), is the personification of the Earth[2] and one of the Greek primordial deities. Gaia is the ancestral mother of all life: the primal Mother Earth goddess. She is the immediate parent of Uranus (the sky), from whose sexual union she bore the Titans (themselves parents of many of the Olympian gods) and the Giants, and of Pontus (the sea), from whose union she bore the primordial sea gods. Her equivalent in the Roman pantheon was Terra.[3]

AZPaul3 writes:


Compared to nature, your god is a teddy bear. An ugly mean, bloodthirsty teddy bear. But Ma Nature is the absolute most badass killer of all time. Nothing survives her embrace. Not even gods.

Let the record show that AZPaul3 knowing, unknowingly, tongue-in-cheek or sarcastically refers to the understanding of science as Mother nature, "a badass...stronger than any gods. The secular peanut gallery pounds the table and demands evidence! We refer them to what is being written and what has been written. Meanwhile, the outside observers note that the secular humanists get quite angry at our absolute truth claims, saying that we are merely asserting literary mythos as factual. But lets again examine AZPaul3's statement earlier:
AZPaul3 writes:

Compared to nature, your god is a teddy bear. (...) But Ma Nature is the absolute most badass killer of all time. Nothing survives her embrace. Not even gods.

Ever heard of the "god of forces" mentioned in Daniel?

Dan 11:29-12:4 writes:

The Northern King's Blasphemies
"At the appointed time, he shall return and go toward the south, but it shall not be like the former or the latter. 30 For ships from Cyprus shall come against him; therefore, he shall be grieved, and return in rage against the holy covenant, and do damage.
"So he shall return and show regard for those who forsake the holy covenant. 31 And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation. 32 Those who do wickedly against the covenant he shall corrupt with flattery, but the people who know their God shall be strong, and carry out great exploits. 33 And those of the people who understand shall instruct many; yet for many days they shall fall by sword and flame, captivity and plundering. 34 Now when they fall, they shall be aided with a little help; but many shall join with them by intrigue. 35 And some of those of understanding shall fall, to refine them, purify them, and make them white, until the time of the end; because it is still for the appointed time.
36 "Then the king shall do according to his own will: he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished; for what has been determined shall be done. 37 He shall regard neither the God of his fathers nor the desire of women, nor regard any god; for he shall exalt himself above them all. 38 But in their place, he shall honor a god of fortresses; and a god which his fathers did not know he shall honor with gold and silver, with precious stones and pleasant things. 39 Thus he shall act against the strongest fortresses with a foreign god, which he shall acknowledge, and advance its glory; and he shall cause them to rule over many, and divide the land for gain.
The Northern King's Conquests
"At the time of the end the king of the South shall attack him; and the king of the North shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter the countries, overwhelm them, and pass through. 41 He shall also enter the Glorious Land, and many countries shall be overthrown; but these shall escape from his hand: Edom, Moab, and the prominent people of Ammon. 42 He shall stretch out his hand against the countries, and the land of Egypt shall not escape. 43 He shall have power over the treasures of gold and silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt; also, the Libyans and Ethiopians shall follow at his heels. 44 But news from the east and the north shall trouble him; therefore, he shall go out with great fury to destroy and annihilate many. 45 And he shall plant the tents of his palace between the seas and the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and no one will help him.

So who could we shoehorn in as the "King of the North? How about Putin? Let's see what he is doing lately over in Russia--
7,000 Churches Fasting, Praying Over Terrifying New Persecution Law Recently enacted a bit over two years ago, this bill from our King Of The North toughens punishment for what is called "organized mass unrest."
Furthermore, Great Commission Ministries Chairman Hanny Haukka tells Charisma News the law entails:
  • Foreign guests are not permitted to speak in churches unless they have a "work permit" from Russian authorities
  • If a friend or relative from outside Russia wishes to share his/her faith in your home, the guest will be fined and expelled from Russia.
  • Any discussion of God with non-believers is considered missionary activity and will be punishable.
  • Missionary activity will be permitted by special government permission. Example: If one traveling on a train shares his faith without written permission, the offender will be taken into police custody for the duration of the journey and will be fined 50,000 rubles ($1,000).
  • Offenders from the age of 14-years-old will be subject to prosecution
  • Religious activity is no longer permitted in private homes. Most churches in Russia meet in homes.
  • Every citizen is obligated to report religious activity of neighbors to the authorities. Failure to be an informant is punishable by law.
  • One may pray and read the Bible at home but not in the presence of a non-believing person. You will be breaking the law and be punished.
  • If the church has purchased a property, it cannot be converted into a place of worship.
  • In church buildings, it is not permitted to invite people to turn to God. Worship services are permitted but making a non-believer a follower of Christ is against the law.

  • Daniel 12:1 writes:


    "At that time Michael shall stand up,
    The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
    And there shall be a time of trouble,
    Such as never was since there was a nation,
    Even to that time.
    And at that time your people shall be delivered,
    Every one who is found written in the book.
    2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
    Some to everlasting life,
    Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
    3 Those who are wise shall shine
    Like the brightness of the sky,
    And those who turn many to righteousness
    Like the stars forever and ever.

    4 "But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase."
    NKJV

    Comments?


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 463 by AZPaul3, posted 06-20-2019 3:45 AM AZPaul3 has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 468 by Pressie, posted 06-20-2019 7:16 AM Phat has responded
     Message 474 by AZPaul3, posted 06-20-2019 11:40 AM Phat has not yet responded
     Message 475 by Faith, posted 06-20-2019 11:42 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    Pressie
    Member
    Posts: 2086
    From: Pretoria, SA
    Joined: 06-18-2010


    Message 468 of 862 (855495)
    06-20-2019 7:16 AM
    Reply to: Message 467 by Phat
    06-20-2019 6:56 AM


    Re: The Evidence Is The Believers Themselves
    This one was really funny. 'Believe in' a god of nature....

    Not all people are as unenlightened as you, thuggy. You really should read more than one book. Your illiteracy is not a good ad for the religion you believe in.

    Thugpreacha writes:

    Of course, AZPaul3 does not believe in stories from the Bible nor the Fall, but apparently, he does knowingly or unknowingly believe in a god of forces. Note: NKJV and NIV refer to a "god of fortresses whereas KJV refers to a god of forces. Some could attribute this homage to "Mother Nature"...


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 467 by Phat, posted 06-20-2019 6:56 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 506 by Phat, posted 06-21-2019 2:35 AM Pressie has not yet responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 32662
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 1.8


    Message 469 of 862 (855498)
    06-20-2019 8:14 AM
    Reply to: Message 448 by Dredge
    06-19-2019 9:16 PM


    So why did you decide to accept something filled with errors and inconsistencies and mutually exclusive descriptions and where there are many different collections that vary from just five books to over eighty books as fact?

    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 448 by Dredge, posted 06-19-2019 9:16 PM Dredge has not yet responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 32662
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 1.8


    Message 470 of 862 (855499)
    06-20-2019 8:16 AM
    Reply to: Message 453 by Dredge
    06-19-2019 10:48 PM


    Dredge writes:

    You are a "Christian" but you don't believe that God exists?

    I am a Christian and know that every God or god described in or by any religion is a creation of the human mind.


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 453 by Dredge, posted 06-19-2019 10:48 PM Dredge has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 500 by Dredge, posted 06-20-2019 7:10 PM jar has responded

      
    Theodoric
    Member
    Posts: 7051
    From: Northwest, WI, USA
    Joined: 08-15-2005


    (1)
    Message 471 of 862 (855501)
    06-20-2019 8:37 AM
    Reply to: Message 457 by Phat
    06-20-2019 2:25 AM


    Re: The Evidence Is The Believers Themselves
    Do you have any ideas of your own? Maybe actually use this forum it was was meant to be used. Type your ideas or summarize others ideas that you agree with. This presenting ideas via video is worthless. Why would we want to listen to preacher spew tautologies, word salad and utter crap?
    I did not listen to this joker, but if he is a preacher that is all he has to say.

    Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.


    Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

    "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

    If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 457 by Phat, posted 06-20-2019 2:25 AM Phat has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 472 by Pressie, posted 06-20-2019 9:14 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

      
    Pressie
    Member
    Posts: 2086
    From: Pretoria, SA
    Joined: 06-18-2010


    (2)
    Message 472 of 862 (855503)
    06-20-2019 9:14 AM
    Reply to: Message 471 by Theodoric
    06-20-2019 8:37 AM


    Re: The Evidence Is The Believers Themselves
    Yeah.

    It's as if Thuggy thinks that nobody has ever heard his preaching before.

    Hey, Thuggy. I've read many versions of your favourite Holey Book. Multiple times. That's what turned me into a radical, militant atheist. It doesn't help you quoting it. Your versions of your favourite 'Holey Book' don't make any sense.

    I'll steep down to the level quoting 'so-called' authorities, too.

    To quote Judge Judy: "If it doesn't make any sense, it likely is not true."

    Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

    Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 471 by Theodoric, posted 06-20-2019 8:37 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 507 by Phat, posted 06-21-2019 2:49 AM Pressie has not yet responded

      
    Faith 
    Suspended Member
    Posts: 35298
    From: Nevada, USA
    Joined: 10-06-2001


    Message 473 of 862 (855507)
    06-20-2019 11:23 AM
    Reply to: Message 465 by AZPaul3
    06-20-2019 4:02 AM


    Re: The Evidence Is The Believers Themselves
    Wasn't I talking about the effects of this supposed "sixth extinction" you mentioned, not entropy? Oh well.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 465 by AZPaul3, posted 06-20-2019 4:02 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

      
    AZPaul3
    Member
    Posts: 5123
    From: Phoenix
    Joined: 11-06-2006
    Member Rating: 3.0


    (1)
    Message 474 of 862 (855510)
    06-20-2019 11:40 AM
    Reply to: Message 467 by Phat
    06-20-2019 6:56 AM


    Re: The Evidence Is The Believers Themselves
    Comments?

    BS


    Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 467 by Phat, posted 06-20-2019 6:56 AM Phat has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 478 by Faith, posted 06-20-2019 11:52 AM AZPaul3 has responded

      
    Faith 
    Suspended Member
    Posts: 35298
    From: Nevada, USA
    Joined: 10-06-2001


    Message 475 of 862 (855511)
    06-20-2019 11:42 AM
    Reply to: Message 467 by Phat
    06-20-2019 6:56 AM


    Re: The Evidence Is The Believers Themselves
    ABE: I didn't realize I was answering you thugs, thought it was tangle for some reason.

    =======================================

    The god of forces or fortresses is the god that will be worshiped by the final Antichrist.

    The Fall is the result of human sin. A modicum of humility about our own sins is in order, since we are the cause of all the suffering the whole Creation endures, and since others endure more than a lot of us we should blame ourselves for their suffering, llke that man in Thug's video, or your relative. Nevertheless God does hear prayer.

    Nature is violent as a result of the Fall too. Again, prayer can mitigate that as well.

    I understand not believing. That was my condition for about thirty years too. But what I don't understand is this angry claim to KNOW that it's all false. Since you have no evidence whatever, but you know there are lots of others who believe, how can you claim to KNOW there is nothing to it? Don't you all claim to have the scientific perspective here? If there is no evidence you simply cannot know, that's the scientific stance isn't it?

    I've been watching the Netflix series "Forensic Files" and there is often a point in the investigation of a murder where they seem to have quite a bit of evidence, certainly more than you think you have for or against God, but they feel it's not enough for them to make a case against a suspect. So they keep investigating and eventually turn up some more until they can confidently charge a suspect.

    But you guys aggressively assert that my beliefs, and Thug's and dredge's and others' are "not real" based on what? NOTHING, nothing at all. That's not a scientific stance, that's just emotional bias and really, ********* (a word Percy won't let me write, sigh): since YOU don't see anything to belief in God that's enough for you to denounce it as false. Not very impressive thinking there.

    Oh but you also deny our way of understanding things to give you an excuse to denounce it. You make up your own stuff and that's your evidence. NOT very impressive....

    T

    Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

    Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

    Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 467 by Phat, posted 06-20-2019 6:56 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    Replies to this message:
     Message 481 by Tanypteryx, posted 06-20-2019 12:08 PM Faith has responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 18332
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 1.8


    Message 476 of 862 (855512)
    06-20-2019 11:44 AM
    Reply to: Message 454 by Dredge
    06-19-2019 10:55 PM


    Re: Main Assertion: God is an uncaused first cause and was never made.
    Dredge writes:

    If energy and matter didn't have a beginning, they must have always existed.


    If God didn't have a beginning - i.e. if He always existed - why couldn't energy and matter?

    All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
    That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 454 by Dredge, posted 06-19-2019 10:55 PM Dredge has not yet responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 18332
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 1.8


    Message 477 of 862 (855513)
    06-20-2019 11:50 AM
    Reply to: Message 460 by Faith
    06-20-2019 2:57 AM


    Re: The Evidence Is The Believers Themselves
    Faith writes:

    God created everything absolutely perfect, but the Fall is why there is death, disease and suffering in this world.


    That isn't what the Bible says. God Himself said that Adam and Eve became more like Him - i.e. they were improved. They could not have been created perfect.

    All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
    That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 460 by Faith, posted 06-20-2019 2:57 AM Faith has not yet responded

      
    Faith 
    Suspended Member
    Posts: 35298
    From: Nevada, USA
    Joined: 10-06-2001


    Message 478 of 862 (855514)
    06-20-2019 11:52 AM
    Reply to: Message 474 by AZPaul3
    06-20-2019 11:40 AM


    Re: The Evidence Is The Believers Themselves
    BS

    Says the guy with the greasy fried egg for an avatar.

    The certainty is incomprehensible.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 474 by AZPaul3, posted 06-20-2019 11:40 AM AZPaul3 has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 483 by AZPaul3, posted 06-20-2019 1:04 PM Faith has responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 18332
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 1.8


    Message 479 of 862 (855515)
    06-20-2019 11:52 AM
    Reply to: Message 462 by Faith
    06-20-2019 3:27 AM


    Re: The Evidence Is The Believers Themselves
    Faith writes:

    Every time you say God CREATED the misery I'm going to answer you about the Fall....


    And every time you mention the "Fall", I'm going to point out that it's a lie.

    All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
    That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 462 by Faith, posted 06-20-2019 3:27 AM Faith has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 480 by Faith, posted 06-20-2019 12:01 PM ringo has responded

      
    Faith 
    Suspended Member
    Posts: 35298
    From: Nevada, USA
    Joined: 10-06-2001


    Message 480 of 862 (855517)
    06-20-2019 12:01 PM
    Reply to: Message 479 by ringo
    06-20-2019 11:52 AM


    Re: The Evidence Is The Believers Themselves
    Well, a debate at EvC wouldn't be the magnificent thing it is without the gadfly point of view.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 479 by ringo, posted 06-20-2019 11:52 AM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 482 by ringo, posted 06-20-2019 12:19 PM Faith has not yet responded

      
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