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Author Topic:   Who Made God?
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 541 of 868 (855820)
06-23-2019 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 530 by Phat
06-22-2019 4:29 PM


Re: The Evidence Is The Believers Themselves
Phat writes:
So are you saying that humanity has to agree before it can be called evidence?
You don't have to take a poll of 7 billion people but yes, there has to be agreement. You can not, for example, use your feelings of spooks crawling around in your head as evidence.
Phat writes:
Heb 11:1-2 writes:
You can't use Hebrews 11 as your sole definition of evidence. Remember that the KJV was wrtiiten several centuries ago when our ideas about scientific evidence and even judicial evidence were very different. The NIV, for example, uses the word "assurance" instead. The ASV, the ESV and the RSV use "conviction".
Phat writes:
But of course that is a Dusty old book....
Don't forget that I am the one who respects the dusty old book and you are the one who throws out the parts you don't like.
Phat writes:
And there is far from a consensus as to the accuracy or evident meaning of said book (or books).
Exactly.

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 530 by Phat, posted 06-22-2019 4:29 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 542 by Faith, posted 06-23-2019 4:08 PM ringo has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 542 of 868 (855831)
06-23-2019 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 541 by ringo
06-23-2019 2:24 PM


Re: The Evidence Is The Believers Themselves
You can't use Hebrews 11 as your sole definition of evidence. Remember that the KJV was wrtiiten several centuries ago when our ideas about scientific evidence and even judicial evidence were very different. The NIV, for example, uses the word "assurance" instead. The ASV, the ESV and the RSV use "conviction".
Don't assume too much about the word choices for the more modern translations. Not only are the Greek texts corrupt but there is a legal requirement that to justify publishing a new translation requires that it have a certain number of differences from those already published. So most of the changes are nothing more than synonyms for terms in other versions, with little or no actual translational justification.
The KJV wasn't "written," it was a translation.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 541 by ringo, posted 06-23-2019 2:24 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 543 by Theodoric, posted 06-23-2019 4:12 PM Faith has replied
 Message 548 by ringo, posted 06-24-2019 11:50 AM Faith has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 543 of 868 (855832)
06-23-2019 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 542 by Faith
06-23-2019 4:08 PM


Re: The Evidence Is The Believers Themselves
Well then show that the KJV translation is a more accurate translation.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 542 by Faith, posted 06-23-2019 4:08 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 544 by Faith, posted 06-23-2019 4:47 PM Theodoric has not replied
 Message 552 by jar, posted 06-24-2019 4:08 PM Theodoric has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 544 of 868 (855833)
06-23-2019 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 543 by Theodoric
06-23-2019 4:12 PM


Re: The Evidence Is The Believers Themselves
Showing that is not easy. Dean John William Burgon went to great lengths to show the corruptions of the Greek texts as well as the bad translation of the "New Revised Edition" put out in 1881 as a supposed updating of the KJV which was really a wholesale retranslation based on bad texts and bad translation.
He wrote a number of books on the subject. The main one was "The Revision Revised" which covered the corruptions and the translational choices.
He also wrote one specifically on the corruptions of the Greek texts.
I also have a blog on all this, The Great Bible Hoax of 1881. I've collected a list of books on the subject, many of them by Burgon, in the right margin.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 543 by Theodoric, posted 06-23-2019 4:12 PM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 545 by LamarkNewAge, posted 06-23-2019 8:14 PM Faith has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 737 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 545 of 868 (855837)
06-23-2019 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 544 by Faith
06-23-2019 4:47 PM


Martin Luther said entire "Biblical" books were uninspired.
Faith said:
quote:
Dean John William Burgon went to great lengths to show the corruptions of the Greek texts as well as the bad translation of the "New Revised Edition" put out in 1881 as a supposed updating of the KJV which was really a wholesale retranslation based on bad texts and bad translation.
But here are a few Luther quotes on Esther.
quote:
I am so great an enemy to the second book of the Maccabees, and to Esther, that I wish they had not come to us at all, for they have too many heathen unnaturalities. The Jews much more esteemed the book of Esther than any of the prophets; though they were forbidden to read it before they had attained the age of thirty, by reason of the mystic matters it contains.
http://www.patheos.com/...of-esther.html#CUPeqSZrG0fChmk6.99
quote:
the Jewish canon. You are somewhat biting and derisive yourself about that canon, when you compare the Proverbs of Solomon and the Love-song (as with a sneering innuendo you term it) to the two books of Esdras and Judith, and the History of Susanna and of the Dragon, and the book of Esther (though they have this last in their canon; in my opinion, however, it is less worthy to be held canonical than any of these).
Luther said Revelation was NOT Apostolic.
Martin Luther made an effort at an accurate translation (and his Bible was based on the manuscripts that would late be used for the Kings James translation), but there was - to him - a MUCH DEEPER PROBLEM than simple translation issues.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 544 by Faith, posted 06-23-2019 4:47 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 546 by Faith, posted 06-23-2019 9:04 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 546 of 868 (855842)
06-23-2019 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 545 by LamarkNewAge
06-23-2019 8:14 PM


Re: Martin Luther said entire "Biblical" books were uninspired.
Luther wasn't wrog about much but he was wrong to reject books we now regard as canonical.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 545 by LamarkNewAge, posted 06-23-2019 8:14 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 547 of 868 (855855)
06-24-2019 9:16 AM
Reply to: Message 514 by Phat
06-21-2019 10:23 AM


Thugpreacha writes:
Do you think that *we* are here for no purpose?
Do you think your favourite Spooks are there for no purpose? Just answer the question.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 514 by Phat, posted 06-21-2019 10:23 AM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 548 of 868 (855871)
06-24-2019 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 542 by Faith
06-23-2019 4:08 PM


Re: The Evidence Is The Believers Themselves
Faith writes:
Don't assume too much about the word choices for the more modern translations.
What I'm telling Phat is that the meaning of the word "evidence" has changed in four hundred years. The translators who produced the King James Version could not possibly have known how we would use the word four hundred years later.
Faith writes:
Not only are the Greek texts corrupt...
Which is why no translation is reliable in the first place.
Faith writes:
... there is a legal requirement that to justify publishing a new translation requires that it have a certain number of differences from those already published.
There are copyright laws covering the new translations but there is no copyright on the corrupt Greek texts.
Faith writes:
So most of the changes are nothing more than synonyms for terms in other versions, with little or no actual translational justification.
The whole point being that the words used in modern translations are not synonymous with the modern use of "evidence".

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 542 by Faith, posted 06-23-2019 4:08 PM Faith has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 549 of 868 (855873)
06-24-2019 12:17 PM


Another Good Video
I'll try and add a link to the transcript when I get a few minutes later today.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 550 of 868 (855895)
06-24-2019 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 537 by Tangle
06-23-2019 4:50 AM


Re: Take A Side
Theo The Great writes:
Arbitrator of reality? WTF does that even mean?
It means that through Him, all things were created. Not through a dead genius. At best, Hawking was an intelligent ant. Jesus Was, Is, and always Will Be, for those whose names are written in the Lambs Book of Life. I've never checked the list myself.
Tangle writes:
I think he just likes the patterns and noises the words make in his head.
He's obviously slightly off his trolley at the moment, probably spending a lot of time listening to mad pastor videos that he's now trying to ape.
Cute that you use the word "Ape." Animals, by nature, have instincts. They do not have a conscious self awareness nor an intuition. Only humans have these qualities. The GoE Story is quite likely not literally true. If the Bible was literal in the sense of Great Floods (no evidence for one) Adam & Eve and the talking snake Danial and the Great Fish, etc...then all of life as we know it would become an untrustworthy, enchanted and magical land of demons, goblins, talking snakes, literal Angels and literal fallen angels...or demons. Thus, rational Christians such as myself have assumed the stories to be metaphorical and yet actual in a metaphorical sense. Humans are the story on this planet, despite our egotistical awareness of and misuse of such a fact. GOD, the Creator of all seen and unseen throughout not only a universe but a potential multiverse reality of as yet unknown matters, ideas, concepts, and facts, did in fact desire to connect with the humans here on earth at one preordained and foreknown point in time (as we know it). The book (or more appropriately, books, Canons, and written beliefs supporting the same general flow) was intended to be the explanation for humanity Of this eternal Communion through the Third Person of the Trinity presented to and introduced to consensual understanding at a given point in time. It was foreknown that He would die, killed by the very humans He was trying to reach. It was foreknown that there would be a Spiritual War of sorts between Gods perfect Communion offered to us to accept and that of a rogue free willed fallen angel who was also foreknown to have chosen independence from said Creator. Believe it or not. But don't assume that today's current crop of educated Free Willed Humans* who have chosen to reject Jesus Christ (Gods Human Character) and dismiss the stories as descriptions of a cruel and developing God of human imagination in one of many storybooks designed in the minds of humans. For the fact is that (some) humans by nature have chosen to dismiss the stories as old Legends and Cultural Mythos. And the reason is as simple as the story reveals it to be.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 537 by Tangle, posted 06-23-2019 4:50 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 551 by Theodoric, posted 06-24-2019 4:00 PM Phat has replied
 Message 554 by Tangle, posted 06-24-2019 4:19 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 559 by ringo, posted 06-25-2019 12:09 PM Phat has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 551 of 868 (855898)
06-24-2019 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 550 by Phat
06-24-2019 3:47 PM


Re: Take A Side
It means that through Him, all things were created.
More word salad. That doesn't mean anything either.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 550 by Phat, posted 06-24-2019 3:47 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 555 by Phat, posted 06-24-2019 4:58 PM Theodoric has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 552 of 868 (855901)
06-24-2019 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 543 by Theodoric
06-23-2019 4:12 PM


Re: The Evidence Is The Believers Themselves
The Authorized KJV Bible was created to be a Politically Correct Single Source Document that would dampen the violence between Roman Catholic Christians and Protestant Christians and support the Divine Right of Kings.
It failed in both.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 543 by Theodoric, posted 06-23-2019 4:12 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 553 by Theodoric, posted 06-24-2019 4:17 PM jar has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 553 of 868 (855904)
06-24-2019 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 552 by jar
06-24-2019 4:08 PM


Re: The Evidence Is The Believers Themselves
It is also probably the worst translation there is of the original Greek, Aramaic and Hebrew.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 552 by jar, posted 06-24-2019 4:08 PM jar has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 554 of 868 (855905)
06-24-2019 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 550 by Phat
06-24-2019 3:47 PM


Re: Take A Side
Get help Phat.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 550 by Phat, posted 06-24-2019 3:47 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 555 of 868 (855912)
06-24-2019 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 551 by Theodoric
06-24-2019 4:00 PM


Re: Take A Side
You call it word salad because you are not a believer. Your brain is not wired to take leaps of faith. Thus to you, I may as well be saying
’Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 551 by Theodoric, posted 06-24-2019 4:00 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 556 by Tangle, posted 06-24-2019 5:03 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 557 by Theodoric, posted 06-24-2019 5:14 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 558 by jar, posted 06-24-2019 7:31 PM Phat has replied
 Message 560 by ringo, posted 06-25-2019 12:13 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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