Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 64 (9071 total)
349 online now:
AZPaul3, jar (2 members, 347 visitors)
Newest Member: FossilDiscovery
Upcoming Birthdays: Percy
Post Volume: Total: 893,097 Year: 4,209/6,534 Month: 423/900 Week: 129/150 Day: 22/38 Hour: 0/1


EvC Forum ⇒ Side Orders ⇒ The Book Nook ⇒

The Case For A Creator

Thread ▼ Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The Case For A Creator
ringo
Member
Posts: 19518
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8

Normal Thread Display

(1)
Message 13 of 67 (856289)
06-29-2019 11:51 AM 		Reply to: Message 8 by Phat
06-29-2019 8:11 AM

Re: Objective Verifiable Reality versus Subjective Experience
Phat writes:

I would argue that the "religion" of Christianity was never meant to be discerned and accepted based on objective verifiable evidence.


Of course not. What religion is?
All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo
This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Phat, posted 06-29-2019 8:11 AM Phat has seen this message
  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19518
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8

Normal Thread Display
Message 15 of 67 (856291)
06-29-2019 11:54 AM 		Reply to: Message 9 by Phat
06-29-2019 8:17 AM

Phat writes:

In addition, I believe that we are in a spiritual war and that there are literally principalities, powers, and assignments against the Christian message. Dont ask me why---just call me crazy.


You're crazy. It's a paranoid delusion, like Faith seeing leftists behind every tree.
All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo
This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Phat, posted 06-29-2019 8:17 AM Phat has seen this message
  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19518
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8

Normal Thread Display
Message 17 of 67 (856310)
06-29-2019 1:37 PM 		Reply to: Message 16 by Faith
06-29-2019 1:25 PM

Re: Objective Verifiable Reality versus Subjective Experience
Faith writes:

There were a lot more than a "few" eyewitnesses to most of Jesus' miracles among other things. He fed thousands from a few loaves. He provided enough wine for a whole wedding feast etc etc.


You can't include all of those as eyewitnesses. They may have seen but they didn't testify. The only testimony we have is from the gospel writers themselves (who weren't necessarily eyewitnesses themselves).
All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo
This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Faith, posted 06-29-2019 1:25 PM Faith has taken no action
Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Phat, posted 06-29-2019 4:22 PM ringo has replied
  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19518
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8

Normal Thread Display
Message 20 of 67 (856336)
06-29-2019 4:58 PM 		Reply to: Message 19 by Phat
06-29-2019 4:22 PM

Re: Objective Verifiable Reality versus Subjective Experience
Phat writes:

But I surely would include some even if but a small minority.


No, you can not include characters in the story as eyewitnesses to the story. That should be obvious. A storyteller saying they were eyewitnesses doesn't make them eyewitesses.

And even if the event did really happen, you would not get thousands of eyewitnesses telling the same story. You'd get so many different versions that it would be impossible to tell what actually happened.

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo
This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Phat, posted 06-29-2019 4:22 PM Phat has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Phat, posted 06-30-2019 11:51 AM ringo has replied
  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19518
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8

Normal Thread Display

(2)
Message 24 of 67 (856391)
06-30-2019 2:16 PM 		Reply to: Message 22 by Phat
06-30-2019 11:51 AM

Re: Objective Verifiable Reality versus Subjective Experience
Phat writes:

But what I am trying (unsuccessfully) to get through your thick skulls is that the event and events that I am describing are in fact life changing events for every single one of us.


And what I'm trying to get across is that those "events" are not real events at all. The effect on the reader does not determine the reality of the events. People can be affected by fictional events as readily as by real events.

Phat writes:

The fact that you are unimpressed nor moved by the book and its contents is also noted.


Why do you keep lying about that? I have told you many times that I respect the book more than you do. I'm the one who quotes it to you and you're the one who rejects it.

Phat writes:

Pulling up contradictions and inconsistencies is simply human attempts at manipulation of interpretation of reality.


We're not talking about contradictions or inconsistencies here. We're talking about you flat-out contradicting what the Bible says.
All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo
This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Phat, posted 06-30-2019 11:51 AM Phat has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Phat, posted 06-30-2019 4:11 PM ringo has seen this message
  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19518
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8

Normal Thread Display
Message 28 of 67 (856969)
07-04-2019 12:38 PM 		Reply to: Message 26 by Sarah Bellum
07-01-2019 11:40 PM

Same with the "Oooh, the universe has such a complex structure!"

Chaplain: Let us praise God. O Lord...

Congregation: O Lord...

Chaplain: ...Ooh, You are so big...

Congregation: ...Ooh, You are so big...

Chaplain: ...So absolutely huge.

Congregation: ...So absolutely huge.

Chaplain: Gosh, we're all really impressed down here, I can tell You.

Congregation: Gosh, we're all really impressed down here, I can tell You.

Chaplain: Forgive us, O Lord, for this, our dreadful toadying, and...

Congregation: And barefaced flattery.

Chaplain: But You are so strong and, well, just so super.

Congregation: Fantastic.

Humphrey: Amen.

Congregation: Amen.

-- Monty Python's The meaning of Life

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo
This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-01-2019 11:40 PM Sarah Bellum has seen this message
  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19518
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8

Normal Thread Display
Message 47 of 67 (857926)
07-13-2019 11:57 AM 		Reply to: Message 35 by Phat
07-13-2019 9:31 AM

Re: jars logic regarding a Creator
Phat writes:

Its like I told ringo:

quote:
The default standard need not be scientific objectifiable proof in regards to such matters. How would one go about proving God to begin with?

And I answered: You don't want that to be the standard because your god doesn't meet the standard.

If your god existed, he should be easy to prove: Pray for the sick and they're healed - every time.

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo
This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Phat, posted 07-13-2019 9:31 AM Phat has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Phat, posted 07-13-2019 11:58 AM ringo has replied
  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19518
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8

Normal Thread Display
Message 50 of 67 (857929)
07-13-2019 12:08 PM 		Reply to: Message 41 by Phat
07-13-2019 10:49 AM

Re: jars logic regarding a Creator
Phat writes:

ringo claims that everything known and/or knowable about the Christian God and His Son Jesus Christ is contained within the book. Which would suggest that God (and Jesus) could never truly be alive within reality and within one's heart...


Do the voices in your head heart tell you their name is Jesus? Or are you just associating those spooky feelings with the stories of Jesus that you have heard?

If somebody had never heard of Jesus suddenly found Jesus "alive in their heart", would they know about the stories of Jesus at all?

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo
This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Phat, posted 07-13-2019 10:49 AM Phat has taken no action
  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19518
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8

Normal Thread Display
Message 51 of 67 (857930)
07-13-2019 12:11 PM 		Reply to: Message 48 by Phat
07-13-2019 11:58 AM

Re: jars logic regarding a Creator
Phat writes:

ringo writes:

If your god existed, he should be easy to prove: Pray for the sick and they're healed - every time.


But thats your arbitrary and fantasy based standard.

It's the opposite of fantasy. It's the standard we use for everything else. You wouldn't keep going to a doctor who consistently failed to make you feel better. Why do you apply a lower standard to your god?
All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo
This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Phat, posted 07-13-2019 11:58 AM Phat has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Phat, posted 07-13-2019 4:16 PM ringo has replied
  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19518
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8

Normal Thread Display
Message 58 of 67 (857944)
07-13-2019 9:54 PM 		Reply to: Message 52 by Phat
07-13-2019 4:16 PM

Re: jars logic regarding a Creator
Phat writes:

But you don't define God.


I'm going by your definition as much as possible but you have a very slippery definition. You're quite happy to use the Bible when it suits you but not when it puts any responsibility on you.

Phat writes:

God if God exists is not measurable nor applicable to the rigors of typical scientific observation. One does not simply make God up by definition.


But you're making up that definition.

Phat writes:

It may well be, however...that some of the more logical minds among us are unable to connect with God due to a reservation of unbelief due to the facts at hand which they hold as the defining marker of such a relationship.


Stop it, stop it, stop it. If you want to discuss the topic constructively and honestly, you have to assume that we all have the same desire to find God as you do.

Phat writes:

Belief is the prerequisite for encounter and communion.


Bullshit.

Phat writes:

God does not simply appear objectively and unabashedly to anyone and everyone...


Why not?
All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo
This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Phat, posted 07-13-2019 4:16 PM Phat has seen this message
  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19518
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8

Normal Thread Display
Message 63 of 67 (857993)
07-14-2019 2:10 PM 		Reply to: Message 61 by Phat
07-14-2019 7:41 AM

Re: jars logic regarding a Creator
Phat writes:

You limit yourself to begin with by claiming that none of us can know if its God or not.


How do you know it's Jehovah and not Zeus or Thor? Answer this question.
All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo
This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Phat, posted 07-14-2019 7:41 AM Phat has taken no action
  
Date format: mm-dd-yyyy
Timezone: ET (US)
  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.1
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2022