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Author Topic:   I Know That God Does Not Exist
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


(1)
Message 886 of 3207 (856354)
06-30-2019 12:40 AM
Reply to: Message 743 by ringo
06-23-2019 2:43 PM


Re: Topic Summary According to Thugzy
ringo writes:
quote:
Micah 6:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?
The will of your Father is for you to do justly, love mercy and walk humbly with your God.
Excellent. Now explain how one can “walk humbly with thy God” if one doesn’t believe in God? Then explain what this means:
”without faith it is impossible to please him. For whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists” (Hebrews 11:6).
The ones who inherit the kingdom - i.e. the real believers - are the ones who feed the hungry, etc. not the ones who only profess belief.
It is the will of God that people believe in Him and obey His commandments:
“Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war with the offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus (Rev 12:17).
”Here is call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments and the faith of Jesus” (Rev 14:12).
Doing good works is part of keeping “the commandments of God” - “faith without works is dead . a man is justified by works and not faith alone” (James 2:17-24).
However, this is a different argument to the one you started with in message 659, which was that Christianity is “about what you do, not what you believe or what you profess.” (Incidentally, you may well be the only person in history who has ever proposed such a ridiculous, easily-refuted theological argument. Congratulations.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 743 by ringo, posted 06-23-2019 2:43 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 895 by GDR, posted 06-30-2019 5:11 PM Dredge has not replied
 Message 908 by ringo, posted 07-01-2019 10:50 AM Dredge has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 887 of 3207 (856358)
06-30-2019 4:37 AM
Reply to: Message 883 by GDR
06-29-2019 6:00 PM


Re: chances
quote:
No I am not. I agree that my view is subjective and is not absolute knowledge as Stile claims his views are. I am fairly sure that we don't disagree on the stuff that you know. Our differences are in the stuff that we don't know but have subjective views on.
I think you are disagreeing with objective fact right here. It is objective fact that your ideas tend to support an infinite regress more than mine. It is objective fact that you offer nothing to support the idea that your assumed creator is any more probable than the unguided emergence of life. It is objective fact that you do nothing but try to take potshots at the opposing view - and most of them miss. Did you not notice the fact that the article you cited in your last reply to me didn’t support your claim ?
It is pretty clear that you want to convince yourself that your view is rational, no matter how irrational you have to be to do it.
quote:
I did kind a allow myself to get dragged off topic but, the fact remains that the improbability of life, IMHO, is more easily rationalized by assuming an external intelligence, (Which I agree does set up a new set of questions), than does natural processes driven by chance.
You can explain anything by the assumption that an intelligence with the desire and the capability did it. That’s why it is not rational to do so. The alleged improbability of life is still beset with massive uncertainty - as the article you cited actually says. So the easier - and better - solution is to assume that it is not so improbable after all. It is a much smaller and more defensible assumption.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 883 by GDR, posted 06-29-2019 6:00 PM GDR has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 888 of 3207 (856393)
06-30-2019 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 884 by GDR
06-29-2019 6:09 PM


Re: chances
GDR writes:
Stile's claim is that he "knows" God does not exist. That claim means that he believes his views are objective, and he attempts to give an objective rationale for his statement. It seems to me that we agree that he has failed to do so.
No. Read what you quoted. My only nitpick with Stile is over the use of the word "know".

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 884 by GDR, posted 06-29-2019 6:09 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 896 by GDR, posted 06-30-2019 5:21 PM ringo has replied

  
Sarah Bellum
Member (Idle past 595 days)
Posts: 826
Joined: 05-04-2019


Message 889 of 3207 (856397)
06-30-2019 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 536 by Faith
06-04-2019 5:34 PM


What does it mean to "inherit" a sin from your ancestors?
You can inherit a house or a cat or an eye color, but a sin?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 536 by Faith, posted 06-04-2019 5:34 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 891 by Phat, posted 06-30-2019 3:51 PM Sarah Bellum has replied

  
Sarah Bellum
Member (Idle past 595 days)
Posts: 826
Joined: 05-04-2019


(1)
Message 890 of 3207 (856398)
06-30-2019 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 859 by GDR
06-29-2019 10:36 AM


Re: You're not looking hard enough
You're putting the cart before the horse. If you think intelligence has to exist before life itself can exist (because you think life has to be "created" by an "intelligence") then you're postulating that an intelligent agency can develop out of some kind of natural origin without the need for life to exist first!
But this means you think that something even more extraordinary than just "life" (that is, "intelligence") can develop naturally. So you must also concede it is even more likely that life can develop naturally.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 859 by GDR, posted 06-29-2019 10:36 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 897 by GDR, posted 06-30-2019 5:45 PM Sarah Bellum has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 891 of 3207 (856404)
06-30-2019 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 889 by Sarah Bellum
06-30-2019 2:46 PM


Ancestral Sin Inheritance
Its kinda like how hurt people hurt people. If someone were abused, for example they would be more likely to abuse others...without understanding their condition.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 889 by Sarah Bellum, posted 06-30-2019 2:46 PM Sarah Bellum has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 892 by AZPaul3, posted 06-30-2019 4:04 PM Phat has replied
 Message 2484 by Sarah Bellum, posted 08-05-2020 9:58 AM Phat has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 892 of 3207 (856413)
06-30-2019 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 891 by Phat
06-30-2019 3:51 PM


Re: Ancestral Sin Inheritance
So your god was hurt as a kid and now he's perpetuating his abuse on us. Might explain a lot.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 891 by Phat, posted 06-30-2019 3:51 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 893 by Phat, posted 06-30-2019 4:09 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 893 of 3207 (856415)
06-30-2019 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 892 by AZPaul3
06-30-2019 4:04 PM


Re: Ancestral Sin Inheritance
God was only hurt necessarily and temporarily through the crucifixion. Humans get hurt through acts of violence,verbal and physical abuse, and psychological hurt perpetuated on them by other humans. You may well argue that religion itself caused a lot of this hurt, so you do have a case. My counter-argument would be that this is all a necessary part of the spiritual war.
As to why God needed to allow evil to exist and likely foreknowing that humans would fall in the hole, we can only speculate further and discuss. But right now i have to get ready for work. Safeway again beckons, and i'm off the next two days so our conversations can continue, God willing.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 892 by AZPaul3, posted 06-30-2019 4:04 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 894 by AZPaul3, posted 06-30-2019 4:44 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 894 of 3207 (856423)
06-30-2019 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 893 by Phat
06-30-2019 4:09 PM


Re: Ancestral Sin Inheritance
this is all a necessary part of the spiritual war.
What spiritual war? The one he declared? Not to go all Goodwin on your butt but that sounds awfully familiar.
As for child abuse syndrome if he’s the kind of god I see you advocate that might explain why he’s so violently pissed off all the time.
Safeway again beckons, and i'm off the next two days so our conversations can continue, God willing.
Be sure to wear the belt while lifting. Careful.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 893 by Phat, posted 06-30-2019 4:09 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 895 of 3207 (856425)
06-30-2019 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 886 by Dredge
06-30-2019 12:40 AM


Re: Topic Summary According to Thugzy
Dredge writes:
Excellent. Now explain how one can “walk humbly with thy God” if one doesn’t believe in God? Then explain what this means:
”without faith it is impossible to please him. For whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists” (Hebrews 11:6).
Hers is a quote from a reading we had in church this morning from Galations 5.
quote:
14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”
There is nothing about having to give intellectual ascent to any specific doctrine or any doctrine at all for that matter.
Let's look at this quote from the sheep and goats parable in Matthew 25.
quote:
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ”Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ 37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ”Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ 40 “The King will reply, ”Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
Once again, nothing about believing in a specific deity. They performed these acts of loving others simply because they were responding to God's call on the hearts of all of us, and loving their neighbour as themselves.
As a Christian it is my belief that the ability to give and receive love is a gift to all humanity. At the same time we all have the ability to make choices about how we use that gift. We can go from the extreme of living to a code of self love without concern for its impact on others. to living lives which are committed totally sacrificially loving others.
When we perform acts of sacrificial love, we believe in, and follow God, whether we give intellectual ascent to His existence or not.
IMHO, it appears to me that the atheist ringo provides a more accurate position of the Christian faith than does the Christian Dredge.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 886 by Dredge, posted 06-30-2019 12:40 AM Dredge has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 896 of 3207 (856426)
06-30-2019 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 888 by ringo
06-30-2019 2:24 PM


Re: chances
ringo writes:
No. Read what you quoted. My only nitpick with Stile is over the use of the word "know".
Do you agree that if we claim to "know" something then we are making the claim that we have objective knowledge in order to make that claim.
I'm not at all clear on what objective evidence that Stile has that you are referring to.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 888 by ringo, posted 06-30-2019 2:24 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 904 by ringo, posted 07-01-2019 9:26 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 897 of 3207 (856430)
06-30-2019 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 890 by Sarah Bellum
06-30-2019 3:05 PM


Re: You're not looking hard enough
Sarah Bellum writes:
You're putting the cart before the horse. If you think intelligence has to exist before life itself can exist (because you think life has to be "created" by an "intelligence") then you're postulating that an intelligent agency can develop out of some kind of natural origin without the need for life to exist first!
Good point, but I can say the same thing for materialists who believe that we are simply the result of natural processes, driven presumably by mindless chance. We have considerable objective evidence for the evolutionary process. As a materialist I have to believe that the evolutionary process resulted from some other process. Of course that process would have required a third process and then............to the Big Bang which in itself required a process.
My subjective explanation for a creative intelligence is that this creative intelligence is outside of time as we perceive it. I see it in a similar vein to the novel Flatland, where the book's characters experience existence in either 1, 2 or 3 dimensions spatially. We are like the residents of "Lineland". We only experience time on one line. I suggest that God is like a resident of "Spaceland" where there are 3 dimensions of time. In that case God could move around infinitely in time, just as we can move infinitely around in space, and therefore God exists timelessly and simply always was and always well be.
That is simply my own philosophical view, with no evidence to support it, but it works for me.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 890 by Sarah Bellum, posted 06-30-2019 3:05 PM Sarah Bellum has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 902 by PaulK, posted 07-01-2019 12:16 AM GDR has replied
 Message 911 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-01-2019 12:02 PM GDR has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 898 of 3207 (856453)
06-30-2019 11:12 PM
Reply to: Message 825 by AZPaul3
06-28-2019 12:02 AM


Re: Topic Summary According to Thugzy
AZPaul3 writes:
Israel Folau had his say. His employer, who has the same right of free speech, had theirs.
No government force involved. No violation of free speech.
His employer reflects the zeitgeist of Western civilization, which is cultural Marxism, and all the degenerate madness that goes with it.
No violation of free speech? Hiarious!
"When the devil comes along preaching in the name of equality, who can oppose him?"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 825 by AZPaul3, posted 06-28-2019 12:02 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 900 by AZPaul3, posted 06-30-2019 11:33 PM Dredge has not replied
 Message 903 by Pressie, posted 07-01-2019 8:56 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 899 of 3207 (856454)
06-30-2019 11:23 PM
Reply to: Message 817 by GDR
06-27-2019 8:19 PM


Re: You're not looking hard enough
GDR writes:
Desmond Tutu.
A fine example of a fake Christian. He carries a "mark of the beast" - support of "gay" rights and the hideous scandal of same-sex "marriage".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 817 by GDR, posted 06-27-2019 8:19 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 901 by AZPaul3, posted 06-30-2019 11:41 PM Dredge has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 900 of 3207 (856455)
06-30-2019 11:33 PM
Reply to: Message 898 by Dredge
06-30-2019 11:12 PM


Re: Topic Summary According to Thugzy
Right. And the illiteratti is keeping us from knowing the truth about bigfoot.
No violation of free speech? Hiarious!
You really don't know what that is do you.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 898 by Dredge, posted 06-30-2019 11:12 PM Dredge has not replied

  
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