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Author | Topic: I Know That God Does Not Exist | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Dredge Member (Idle past 94 days) Posts: 2850 From: Australia Joined: |
GDR writes:
Is this the same Jesus who likened certain people to “dogs” and “swine”; called some of his enemies a “ brood of vipers” and “blind fools”; and said to other enemies, “You are of your father the devil”?
This is the kind of hate mongering that Jesus spoke out so strongly against . It is totally incompatible with Jesus’ commandment to love one’s enemies.
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DrJones* Member Posts: 2285 From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 7.2 |
Tell that to all those atheists out there who believe humans descended from bacteria via a natural process of Darwinian evolution.
a: non atheists accept the theory of evolution2: still not a belief system It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds soon I discovered that this rock thing was true Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world And so there was only one thing I could do Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On *not an actual doctor
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Dredge Member (Idle past 94 days) Posts: 2850 From: Australia Joined: |
So does this quaint and romantic but unscientific idea of “equality” apply to E. coli, lions, slugs and geese too? Or is it just amongst human organisms that you imagine it exists?
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Dredge Member (Idle past 94 days) Posts: 2850 From: Australia Joined: |
Hyroglyphx writes:
In that case, we’ll have to add “survival of the equal-est” to “survival of the fittest” in evolutionary theory. If your belief about Darwinian evolution is one where only "might makes right" or where ruthlessness is the only virtue lauded by nature, then you'd be misguided. Cooperation amongst humans and equitable societies could also be explained by evolutionary theory. Furthermore, you seem to think that the survival of humans is important, whereas according to your Darwinist belief-system, humans are no more important than any other species . and species and species come and go, according to the whims of Mother Nature. According to evolutionary science, the world doesn’t need humans (in fact, the planet might actually be healthier without them).
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8527 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
AZPaul3 writes: Right. You just pass judgement condemning to hell the whole of the human race all at once and before we're even born. Sorry, that one went clear over my head. What are you talking about? Why am I not surprised. They won't let you read that part cuz of the talking snake bit. Too scary for young minds. Now when you're 10 or 12, they'll hit you over the head with it along with big doses of guilt and misogyny. They'll get to you. Until then it's OK, Dredge, the rest of the forum understood. Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.
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DrJones* Member Posts: 2285 From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 7.2
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we were talking about the your claim of a darwinist belief system and here you go with the racism already, you sister fucking hillbillies just can't keep it hidden can you?
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds soon I discovered that this rock thing was true Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world And so there was only one thing I could do Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On *not an actual doctor
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Dredge Member (Idle past 94 days) Posts: 2850 From: Australia Joined: |
DrJones writes:
So you don't believe humans descended from bacteria via a process of Darwinian evolution? If not, what do you believe is responsible for the history of life on earth?
it is not a belief system
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Believers have a different outlook on life than you do. "The rest of the forum" is hardly in consensus. That is why we have debates here. Note the commentary from Philip Yancey's book:
Reaching for the Invisible God writes: Christians are not special. We all share the same human weaknesses..(sins, if you will) but Christians have a connection to the Creator of all seen and unseen, an idea scoffed at and ridiculed by secular humanist/atheists. And one noteworthy trait of Christians is their shared tendency to take their faith seriously and defend it often at great harm to personal reputation and expense. Yes, many Christians are fake and weak. Most of us, actually.
AS I BEGAN THIS book, I went to friends whom I respect as Christians. Some are leaders in their churches and a few have national renown. Others are ordinary citizens in the working world who take their faith seriously. I asked this question: "If a seeking person came to you and asked how your life as a Christian differs from hers as a moral non-Christian, what would you tell her?" I wanted to hear if their faith offered something besides the failures and unrealized dreams, perhaps some hope for transformation. If not, why even bother? Some people mentioned specific changes. "Because of God, I haven't given up on my marriage, despite huge unresolved issues," said one. "And my use of money is very affected, too-I look for ways to help the poor rather than just thinking of my own desires." A woman who had survived a scary bout with breast surgery spoke of her anxieties. "I can't help worrying. I worried about the cancer, I worry about my kids going astray. I know worrying doesn't help, but I do it anyway. Still, I have a kind of baseline confidence in God. Though it may seem deluded, I believe at a very deep level that God is in control. Some people call it a crutch, I call it my faith. For a crippled person there is one thing worse than a crutch, after all-no crutch." Another spoke of sensing God's presence, a feeling of not being alone: "I have to incline my ear and strain to hear God speak; sometimes he speaks best through silence, but he does speak." One man said he could only detect spiritual progress by looking backward. "I know if my house caught fire, I would rush to save my journal. It's my most valuable possession, a record of my relationship with God. There have been few dramatic moments, but there have been intimate moments. As I read my journal now, in retrospect, I can see the hand of God in my life." The author further elaborates: Contemporary author Eugene Peterson attended in his adolescence a religious conference where people met by a lake each summer. They had fiery spiritual intensity and used phrases like "deeper life" and "second blessing." As he watched these people's lives, however, he noticed little continuity between the exuberance at the conference grounds and everyday life in town. "The mothers of our friends who were bitchy before were bitchy still. Mr. Billington, our history teacher, held in such veneration at the center, never relinquished his position in the high school as the most mean-spirited of all our teachers."1-3 I mention these failures not to dampen anyone's faith but to add a dose of realism to spiritual propaganda that promises more than it can deliver. In an odd way the very failures of the church prove its doctrine. Grace, like water, flows to the lowest part. We in the church have humility and contrition to offer the world, not a formula for success. Almost alone in our success-oriented society, we admit that we have failed, are failing, and always will fail. The church in A.D. 3000 will be as rife with problems as the church in A.D. 2000 or 1000. That is why we turn to God so desperately. "The Christian has a great advantage over other men," said C. S. Lewis, "not by being less fallen than they, nor less doomed to live in fallen world, but by knowing that he is a fallen man in a fallen world."1-4 That recognition forms my starting point in undertaking a journey journey to know God. I include these quotes if only to show that many of these beliefs are expressed through sojourners far more experienced than myself or Faith or Dredge, etc. You guys can feel free to vilify the whole lot of us, but I can assure you that it will prove to be a major error in discernment and judgment in your lives.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8527 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
You guys can feel free to vilify the whole lot of us, but I can assure you that it will prove to be a major error in discernment and judgment in your lives. And I can assure you, Thug, that your fairy tales will have no effect on me now or anytime in the future.
"The rest of the forum" is hardly in consensus. Of course not. I said nothing about any consensus. But you understood the reference didn't you. It wasn't at all subtle. Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Apparently AZ was saying Christianity condemns everybody to Hell who doesn't believe. That's how a lot of people take it although theologically it's wrong: Christianity teaches that we're all sinners who are naturally set for Hell and Jesus came as Savior from it.
Christianity didn't invent Hell, some version of a place of torment for the wicked after death exists, or existed, in most cultures long before Jesus came. I think I posted a picture I found of a Buddhist version of Hell with demonic beings wielding pitchforks as unhappy human beings try to get away from them, people depicted with Asian features by the way. Funny how that image is supposed to be Christian but isn't. Anyway Christianity has the only offer of salvation from all that. The idea of Hell is scary of course. I'd talked to my oldest grandson about God off and on when they visited about twice a year, though his parents aren't believers. They didn't seem to mind, and my son in law particularly liked hearing that one of the Ten Commandments is about honoring and obeying your parents and was perfectly happy to have that teaching get into my grandson's head because he was, well, a "difficult" child. "Strong willed" is the term they use. Very hard for a mild mannered well meaning parent to deal with. When he was really little he loved a book of Bible stories I got him, kept asking me to read it to him, learned who all the main characters are. But when he was about seven or eight he learned, not from me but at school of all things, that there is a Hell where people are punished and it upset him very much -- he really seemed to be aware that he was a sinner and would deserve Hell. I hadn't wanted to get into that subject but at least it gave me the opportunity to tell him that Jesus came to save him from Hell. I hope that got through but it's hard to know how a kid processes that kind of information. He's approaching the scary years of adolescence now and all I can do is pray for him. It's interesting that his best friend is from a Christian family although I have no idea if they discuss tnese things. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
AZPaul3 writes: I certainly hope that you are right and that I am wrong. I believe that I am right but of course I could be wrong. And I can assure you, Thug, that your fairy tales will have no effect on me now or anytime in the future.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
we were talking about the your claim of a darwinist belief system and here you go with the racism already, you sister f*****g hillbillies just can't keep it hidden can you? Do they even have hillbillies in Australia? I know you atheists get all bent out of shape when I label you all together, so why do you do it to Christians? #FoodForThoughtChance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Pressie Member Posts: 2103 From: Pretoria, SA Joined: |
Thugpreacha writes: Maybe. The percentages of Hillies like you are relatively uniform, it doesn't matter where you go. In Amcan the number of people like you can seem like lots and lots. In Aussie not really. But, then again, you are not an average Christian. You represent the equivalent of Isis in Christianity. Do they even have hillbillies in Australia? I know you atheists get all bent out of shape when I label you all together, so why do you do it to Christians? #FoodForThought Edited by Pressie, : No reason given. Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
Tangle writes: Is a microbe or a black hole an irrational concept? No. Irrational concept: A concept that is believed to exist without any evidence for the existence of the concept in the first place. We have evidence that microbes and black holes exist - do we not?
We can't observe quantum mechanics but see its effect - like the invisible Santa - and only mathematical models hypothesise about many aspects of our universe. We do have evidence of quantum mechanics - do we not?How is this like the invisible Santa? - I am not aware of evidence for invisibile Santa - do you have some to share with us? Do we have evidence that the mathematical models hold true for other aspect of our universe? - I believe we do.If we do not, if such a mathematical model is created by pure delight with no evidence at all linking it to our reality in any way - of course we should consider this irrational - why shouldn't we? Is it irrational to build mathematical models? If there is evidence to build them - then no.If there is no evidence to build them - then yes. Er no, I don't understand that. I've heard that said and argued many times and think it philosophical bollox. I'm a pragmatist we know things based on our own definitions and our own abilities. That's good enough for me. Great.So pick one thing - any one thing - your best "I really know this is absolutely true" thing. If I cannot find an idea to place the same amount of doubt on it that is placed on "well... what if this God-with-no-evidence-actually-exists?" places on knowing God does not exist... then I will concede your argument. If I can, however, find an idea to place that same amount of doubt on the example you pick as you "really does exist" concept - then will you concede that I am correct? I'll even give you a hint as to what I'm going to say: Tangle's best thing we know "I really know that XXXXX exists!."Stile's response: "Tangle, have you been to everywhere and everywhen? Are you sure that at some where or some when we cannot find any information that might show us that XXXXX actually doesn't exist, and you were wrong to think that it did?" But please, go ahead and try... perhaps you actually do have a concept that is immune to such irrational doubting?
Again, there's a category difference between knowing whether there's a chair in the room or whether there's something happening far beyond or current abilities to understand. Again, I agree.The categorical difference is: One is rational, the other is irrational. Thinking you can apply your current reasoning to everything is a kind of belief. Yes, it's the kind of belief that words have consistent meanings... words like "know." And that to retain such a consistent meaning - irrational concepts need to be rightfully ignored.
Well being a deist suggests that Percy has a different view to yours. One of you is wrong - how does that get resolved? By agreeing on definitions by looking at who's being rational and who's making up inconsistent irrationalities - just like you and I are doing.
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
Sarah Bellum writes: On the other hand, people are not wholly rational beings, so this is all no real surprise. I completely agree.I even think that our irrational side can be more powerful than our rational side - for things like love and comedy and sometimes even motivation. But this doesn't change the fact that over the last few thousand years we've discovered that rational analysis provides us with progress in our knowledge about the truth of reality. And when we let irrational ideas effect such knowledge - it restrains progress and can even destroy it all together.
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