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Author | Topic: I Know That God Does Not Exist | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Stile writes: I look to the experts for that. But *you* claim to know!
If you are proposing a non-interventionist god, then it's up to you to propose what they are supposed to do. But *you* tell me that you don't see evidence where you would expect to find it. I'm simply asking what evidence that would be and where you would expect to find it. If you can't tell me I'm going to ask how can you then know.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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DrJones* Member Posts: 2290 From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 6.9 |
So you don't believe humans descended from bacteria via a process of Darwinian evolution?
no that is not something I believe. I do however accept that it is currently the theory that is best supported by the available evidence.
If not, what do you believe is responsible for the history of life on earth?
natural processes.It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds soon I discovered that this rock thing was true Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world And so there was only one thing I could do Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On *not an actual doctor
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DrJones* Member Posts: 2290 From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 6.9
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Do they even have hillbillies in Australia?
of course they do, haven't you seen Crocodile Dundee?
so why do you do it to Christians?
I'm not calling christians sister-fucking hillbillies, I'm calling racists sister-fucking hillbillies. When you get people whining about culrural marxism or "the fairy tale of racial equality" invariably it come downs to some inbred cousin-humper who's got his diaper full because he can't call people the N word.It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds soon I discovered that this rock thing was true Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world And so there was only one thing I could do Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On *not an actual doctor
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8552 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
If AI ever becomes a real thing then we shall see what absolute rationality will get us. Probably not. We will be the AI. Even with the entire world-wide internet wired to the tip of our tongues there will still be room for human irrationality, like putting pineapple on a pizza. Resistance is futile.Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Stile writes:
And if I can know that unicorns exist, then I can know that God exists for the same reasons. You can make any argument "rational" by slapping an "if" in front of it and you can make anything exist by defining it as existing. I believe it was Modulous, years ago, that posted something like: "If I can know that bigfoot and the loch ness monster do not exist, then I can know God does not exist for the same reasons." But you're just rigging the game so you can't lose.All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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GDR writes:
It doesn't have to be conclusive to be objective.
...lack of evidence isn't conclusive, so Stile cannot "know" that God doesn't exist. GDR writes:
On the contrary, all of the evidence points to natural processes leading to natural processes leading to natural processes leading to natural processes leading to natural processes leading to natural processes....
There is also lack of evidence to show that the natural processes that are available for us to study today resulted from other pre-existing natural processes. GDR writes:
We are searching reality. There is always a default position: No unicorns without evidence for unicorns, no spooks without evidence for spooks.
We are searching for truth so there is no default position. GDR writes:
That's a good excuse for filling your argument with convoluted made-up nonsense but it isn't very useful when dealing with reality. Reality tends to confirm Occam. Occam is a philosophical approach and not a scientific one and is hardly objective evidence.All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
GDR writes: ...lack of evidence isn't conclusive, so Stile cannot "know" that God doesn't exist.ringo writes: Sure, but Stile says He "knows" which IMHO asserts that his evidence is conclusive.
t doesn't have to be conclusive to be objective. ringo writes: What evidence is that, and is it subjective or objective? For that matter ultimately there has to be either an intelligent or a non-intelligent root for that string of processes regardless of how far back you want to go.
On the contrary, all of the evidence points to natural processes leading to natural processes leading to natural processes leading to natural processes leading to natural processes leading to natural processes....GDR writes: ringo writes: But there is evidence for a creative intelligence. Intelligent life itself is subjective evidence. We are searching reality. There is always a default position: No unicorns without evidence for unicorns, no spooks without evidence for spooks. There are also the Gospel stories. We have the objective evidence that they exist and we subjectively decide whether or not to believe them.
ringo writes: But it certainly doesn't allow Stile to be correct in saying he knows that "God" doesn't exist. For that matter is the simplest solution, a virtually infinite number of untraceable lucky processes or the concept of theirebeing a pre-existing intelligence that is responsible for life? That's a good excuse for filling your argument with convoluted made-up nonsense but it isn't very useful when dealing with reality. Reality tends to confirm Occam.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
While I realize that its badf form to use "The Book" to prove "The Book" I will bring up a common apologist argument in defense of The Good Book. Allow Me.....
Rom 1:18-25 writes:
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man -- and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. 24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.NKJV ringo writes:
The only evidence that we have for the book is what is written and recorded over the years. The jury is out concerning specific authors and the motives of said authors, but speculations are allowed for the purposes of this hearing. In addition, I submit that the Believers themselves are evidence for some effects claimed from the God within the book via the Holy Spirit. One side would say Spiritual Impartation while the other side would call it Mass Delusion. There is always a default position: No unicorns without evidence for unicorns, no spooks without evidence for spooks. Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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PaulK Member Posts: 17827 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
It’s an odd defence.
The assertion that God’s existence is obvious is obviously false. But the book goes on to falsely attack anyone who dares say so. So this is more evidence that it’s a scam. And a rather nasty-minded one at this point.
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
I think he's made it clear that it's the current conclusion, not the "ultimate" conclusion. No objective conclusion is ever final in the sense that it can not be altered by new evidence.
... but Stile says He "knows" which IMHO asserts that his evidence is conclusive. GDR writes:
Evidence is not subjective. What evidence is that, and is it subjective or objective? All of the evidence we have points only to natural processes. How could evidence ever point to something unnatural?
GDR writes:
Why? If you can say "the buck stops here" at your intelligent cause, why can't the buck stop somewhere else?
... ultimately there has to be either an intelligent or a non-intelligent root for that string of processes regardless of how far back you want to go. GDR writes:
There is evidence of human intelligence. And as I have said before, the evidence shows that intelligence can only manipulate natural processes. It can not create new processes except from existing processes. What we know about intelligence can not point to an ultimate origin of processes.
But there is evidence for a creative intelligence. GDR writes:
There's no such thing as subjective evidence. You don't get your own private evidence. Evidence must be evident to everybody.
Intelligent life itself is subjective evidence. GDR writes:
We also have Treasure Island. We have the objective evidence that it exists. And furthermore, we have objective evidence of how it came to exist, in Stevenson's own words, which puts it well ahead of the Gospel stories in authenticity.
There are also the Gospel stories. We have the objective evidence that they exist and we subjectively decide whether or not to believe them. GDR writes:
The simplest solution is known processes, as opposed to speculation about the unknown. ... is the simplest solution, a virtually infinite number of untraceable lucky processes or the concept of theirebeing a pre-existing intelligence that is responsible for life?All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Thugpreacha writes:
Believers are pretty conclusive evidence that they have nothing special, no imparted wisdom, no exemplary morality, etc. I submit that the Believers themselves are evidence for some effects claimed from the God within the book via the Holy Spirit.All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
The book is only attacking anyone who outright rejects the possibility of God and who flaunts their freedom in a flesh driven manner. We could go there, but Stile is the topic originator and (he)seems a very nice atheist, so I wont start anything.
Keep in mind that one side believes the book to be inspired by this God Whom we cant seem to be able to objectively prove to your satisfaction.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
All of them? I have seen some rather inspiring sermons...perhaps we can start a new topic on Inspired Sermons and you can attempt to debunk the logic of them.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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PaulK Member Posts: 17827 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: Does it? It seems to me to be saying that everyone knows that God exists, so everyone who denies it deserves to be accused of dishonesty.
quote: Keep in mind, that while the general idea of inspiration is not as obviously false as the inerrantist silliness, it’s got some serious problems.
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Every religion has adherents who are decent people and atheists can be decent people too. You keep claiming that believers themselves are evidence that the belief is valid; I'm saying there is no reliable correlation between belief and behaviour. Believers can use their belief to justify the vilest behaviour.
All of them? Phat writes:
Since the purpose of sermons is to inspire believers, that's hardly surprising.
I have seen some rather inspiring sermons... Phat writes:
The logic of sermons? You might want to think a little longer about that. ...perhaps we can start a new topic on Inspired Sermons and you can attempt to debunk the logic of them.All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo
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