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Author Topic:   A test for claimed knowledge of how macroevolution occurs
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 715 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 646 of 785 (856802)
07-02-2019 11:38 PM
Reply to: Message 643 by JonF
07-02-2019 4:15 PM


Re: The genetic loss idée fixe vs reality
Outside the genome means that you'll never get a human being from an ape because the genetic stuff is simply not there in the ape genome. And yeah I know you think mutations will put it there but you are way underestimating how different human beings are from apes. Yeah I know you'll go on claiming it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 643 by JonF, posted 07-02-2019 4:15 PM JonF has replied

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17171
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 647 of 785 (856803)
07-03-2019 12:24 AM
Reply to: Message 645 by Faith
07-02-2019 11:35 PM


Re: The genetic loss idée fixe vs reality
quote:

The Colorado River DIDN'T carve out the Grand Canyon, that's one of the ToE's most ridiculous notions.

It is not at all ridiculous. Indeed the meanders of the canyon are clear evidence that it was carved by a river.

quote:

The most likely explanation is that it was catastrophically carved out by retreating Flood waters.

That IS ridiculous. Catastrophic carving would not produce the meanders. And the Flood is just a myth anyway.

You have a weird idea of what is “most likely”

quote:

The coral reefs no doubt survived the Flood, it doesn't have to have been a particularly violent event once the water was at its height.

Really ? How do they survive being buried by tons of sediment - which is your idea of what the Flood did - and work their way up to the top of the stack ? (Fossil coral reefs only add to your problems)

quote:

No idea about the galaxies.

That’s the only sensible thing you said. There is no good answer.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 645 by Faith, posted 07-02-2019 11:35 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 648 by Faith, posted 07-03-2019 12:26 AM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 715 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 648 of 785 (856804)
07-03-2019 12:26 AM
Reply to: Message 647 by PaulK
07-03-2019 12:24 AM


Re: The genetic loss idée fixe vs reality
The meanders developed on the flat surface that remained after the scouring of the retreating Flood waters, as did the Colorado River.

All sorts of stuff from the oceans was carried up onto the land during the Flood, and obviously anything fossilized occurred as a result of being buried by the Flood.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 647 by PaulK, posted 07-03-2019 12:24 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 655 by JonF, posted 07-03-2019 10:00 AM Faith has replied
 Message 660 by PaulK, posted 07-03-2019 11:03 AM Faith has taken no action

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17171
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 649 of 785 (856805)
07-03-2019 12:28 AM
Reply to: Message 646 by Faith
07-02-2019 11:38 PM


Re: The genetic loss idée fixe vs reality
quote:

Outside the genome means that you'll never get a human being from an ape because the genetic stuff is simply not there in the ape genome.

A lot of it is.

quote:

And yeah I know you think mutations will put it there but you are way underestimating how different human beings are from apes

You do know that the genetic difference between humans and chimpanzees has been measured ? Perhaps you would like to explain why the measurements are badly wrong? Or at least stop making ignorant objections.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 646 by Faith, posted 07-02-2019 11:38 PM Faith has taken no action

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20829
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 650 of 785 (856815)
07-03-2019 7:49 AM
Reply to: Message 613 by PaulK
07-01-2019 3:57 PM


Re: The genetic loss idée fixe vs reality
PaulK writes:

Selective breeding concentrates variations which would otherwise be spread through the population.

I don't know if this will be helpful to Faith, but it is likely that two different things regarding alleles are occurring simultaneously as a result of the strong selection of breeding. In the new breed, for some genes alleles not normally present in the same individual might be brought together. For other genes alleles normally present in the same individual might be absent.

That is, it's more than just a case of bringing together novel allele combinations. It also involves removing common allele combinations.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 20829
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 651 of 785 (856817)
07-03-2019 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 614 by Faith
07-01-2019 3:59 PM


Re: The genetic loss idée fixe vs reality
Nobody replied to this, so I'll provide a couple answers.

Faith writes:

I'm "ignoring" mutations because I don't believe they have anything to do with what I'm talking about.

If "what I'm talking about" is breeding then ignoring mutation is perfectly reasonable. Most breeders never see a useful mutation over their entire breeding careers. They happen in coding regions with a noticeable effect only very rarely over such short timespans. That's why breeding doesn't produce new species.

But if "what I'm talking about" is evolution, which occurs over much long timespans, then mutation plays a significant role. Evolution does produce new species.

Remember, I'm describing MY model which is entirely different from yours.

Your model is entirely different from reality because it is based upon your imagination and what you wish were true rather than evidence.

At the absolute most I figure a mutation here and there could become part of the scenario but there's no point in making an issue of that.

Now you're saying that mutations *do* happen upon rare occasions, and if you're still thinking about breeding then you are correct. Given the short timespans useful mutations don't happen very often. Mutations are an extremely minor factor in breeding.

The same cannot be said of evolution. It happens over longer timespans with much larger populations than breeders usually work with. The longer timescales and larger populations make mutations a common component of evolution.

That's YOUR model and you are free to describe it as you will.

It's the model based upon evidence from the real world.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 20829
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 652 of 785 (856820)
07-03-2019 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 615 by Faith
07-01-2019 4:01 PM


Re: The genetic loss idée fixe vs reality
Faith writes:

You persist in your weird illusion that you argue from evidence and I don't.

In your entire history here no one has ever been convinced that your weird conclusions follow from real world evidence. Even worse, you keep yourself uninformed by ignoring most evidence presented to you, often pleading that you just can't read it or that you're too tired or that you can't understand it or that you'll come back to it but never do. You ignore many messages entirely, 146 messages so far in this thread alone.

But that you don't argue from evidence is not the topic of this thread. Just declaring that your arguments are based on evidence means nothing. It's actually doing it that means something, and if you do then you will carry the day.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 615 by Faith, posted 07-01-2019 4:01 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 653 by Faith, posted 07-03-2019 9:48 AM Percy has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 715 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 653 of 785 (856823)
07-03-2019 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 652 by Percy
07-03-2019 9:07 AM


Re: The genetic loss idée fixe vs reality
I don't think anyone here has ever been convinced of ANY creationist's views about anything. So I wouldn't take that fact as meaning much. And I do give evidence but it gets sucked up into the EvC twisting system. I'm happy with a lot of what I've said here. It's discouraging to be subjected to all the false accusations but I'm used to discouragement by now. Most of the time anyway.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 652 by Percy, posted 07-03-2019 9:07 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 661 by Taq, posted 07-03-2019 11:03 AM Faith has taken no action
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JonF
Member
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 654 of 785 (856825)
07-03-2019 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 646 by Faith
07-02-2019 11:38 PM


Re: The genetic loss idée fixe vs reality
"Outside the genome" is a meaningless phrase.

Your hallucination of something undetected that prevents the changes we see is ludicrous.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 646 by Faith, posted 07-02-2019 11:38 PM Faith has taken no action

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 655 of 785 (856826)
07-03-2019 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 648 by Faith
07-03-2019 12:26 AM


Re: The genetic loss idée fixe vs reality
The meanders developed on the flat surface that remained after the scouring of the retreating Flood waters, as did the Colorado River.

I.e. the retreating fludde waters didn't carve the canyon, the left a flat surface on which the Colorado carved the canyon that it didn't carve.

Wow.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 648 by Faith, posted 07-03-2019 12:26 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 656 by Faith, posted 07-03-2019 10:04 AM JonF has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 715 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 656 of 785 (856827)
07-03-2019 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 655 by JonF
07-03-2019 10:00 AM


Re: The genetic loss idée fixe vs reality
Well, no, I have a pretty elaborate scenario in mind for that whole area from the Grand Staircase through the Grand Canyon area, how the retreating water carved the staircase and gouged out the GC, and scoured off the Kaibab and Coconino plateaus --and isn't it the Kaibab plateau where the meanders are located? The river remained after the Flood waters were gone and the canyon was its natural exit. Look at a relief map of the area: there are many different geological phenomena from plateaus to canyons to cliffs etc etc etc.

By the way this is a typical way my posts get dealt with, not a shred of willingness to see how it makes sense. Evidence you want? Forget it. The scenario makes good sense on its own and what would be the point of producing evidence when that much isn't even recognized?.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 655 by JonF, posted 07-03-2019 10:00 AM JonF has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 657 by JonF, posted 07-03-2019 10:24 AM Faith has replied

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 657 of 785 (856828)
07-03-2019 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 656 by Faith
07-03-2019 10:04 AM


Re: The genetic loss idée fixe vs reality
When you contradict yourself within a short time you're going to get called on it.

The point of producing evidence would be to support your hallucination. Without evidence you have nothing.

Of course you have no evidence or understanding of the forces involved.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 656 by Faith, posted 07-03-2019 10:04 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 658 by Faith, posted 07-03-2019 10:31 AM JonF has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 715 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 658 of 785 (856830)
07-03-2019 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 657 by JonF
07-03-2019 10:24 AM


Re: The genetic loss idée fixe vs reality
I didn't contradict myself, you just don't know how to read.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 657 by JonF, posted 07-03-2019 10:24 AM JonF has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 662 by JonF, posted 07-03-2019 11:14 AM Faith has taken no action

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 8523
Joined: 03-06-2009


Message 659 of 785 (856833)
07-03-2019 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 646 by Faith
07-02-2019 11:38 PM


Re: The genetic loss idée fixe vs reality
Faith writes:

Outside the genome means that you'll never get a human being from an ape because the genetic stuff is simply not there in the ape genome.

Why couldn't mutations add that genetic stuff?

And yeah I know you think mutations will put it there but you are way underestimating how different human beings are from apes.

At the genetic level, just 2% different. We have measured it. Can you please explain why this is a problem?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 646 by Faith, posted 07-02-2019 11:38 PM Faith has taken no action

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17171
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 660 of 785 (856834)
07-03-2019 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 648 by Faith
07-03-2019 12:26 AM


Re: The genetic loss idée fixe vs reality
quote:

The meanders developed on the flat surface that remained after the scouring of the retreating Flood waters, as did the Colorado River.

So now the Grand Canyon formed after the assumed “scouring”.

Pleas explain how it could form in the relatively few millennia you allow.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 648 by Faith, posted 07-03-2019 12:26 AM Faith has taken no action

  
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