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Author Topic:   I Know That God Does Not Exist
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1051 of 3207 (857025)
07-04-2019 11:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1007 by PaulK
07-04-2019 11:59 AM


Re: In Defense Of The Book
PaulK writes:
Not all that giving is good.
The preachers getting rich from poor Americans (BBC)
Every member of the Catholic clergy, on the other hand, must take a vow of poverty.
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1007 by PaulK, posted 07-04-2019 11:59 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1053 by AZPaul3, posted 07-05-2019 12:19 AM Dredge has not replied
 Message 1055 by PaulK, posted 07-05-2019 12:31 AM Dredge has not replied
 Message 1068 by Theodoric, posted 07-05-2019 9:01 AM Dredge has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1052 of 3207 (857027)
07-05-2019 12:15 AM
Reply to: Message 1050 by Dredge
07-04-2019 11:33 PM


Re: chances
Even the village idiot knows life cannot come naturally from inanimate matter.
So tell us, Village Idiot, how you know it didn't.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1050 by Dredge, posted 07-04-2019 11:33 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1181 by Dredge, posted 07-08-2019 2:30 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1053 of 3207 (857028)
07-05-2019 12:19 AM
Reply to: Message 1051 by Dredge
07-04-2019 11:35 PM


Re: In Defense Of The Book
Every member of the Catholic clergy, on the other hand, must take a vow of poverty.
Just like their vow of chastity.
Were you an alter boy?

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1051 by Dredge, posted 07-04-2019 11:35 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Sarah Bellum
Member (Idle past 595 days)
Posts: 826
Joined: 05-04-2019


Message 1054 of 3207 (857029)
07-05-2019 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 1049 by Dredge
07-04-2019 11:23 PM


Re: chances
I've given examples of how extraordinarily complex results can come from quite simple basic stuff. Do you think those examples are fantasies?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1049 by Dredge, posted 07-04-2019 11:23 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1058 by Son Goku, posted 07-05-2019 3:02 AM Sarah Bellum has replied
 Message 1143 by Dredge, posted 07-07-2019 1:01 AM Sarah Bellum has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1055 of 3207 (857030)
07-05-2019 12:31 AM
Reply to: Message 1051 by Dredge
07-04-2019 11:35 PM


Re: In Defense Of The Book
quote:
Every member of the Catholic clergy, on the other hand, must take a vow of poverty
Which means that the Church nominally owns the wealth and the clergy - at least those with the right position - get to enjoy it.
And I bet that a lot of the Televangelists have a similar deal, for tax purposes if nothing else.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1051 by Dredge, posted 07-04-2019 11:35 PM Dredge has not replied

Replies to this message:
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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1056 of 3207 (857033)
07-05-2019 1:15 AM
Reply to: Message 1047 by Sarah Bellum
07-04-2019 10:18 PM


Re: chances
Sarah Bellum writes:
But then you must also believe that your god is itself the result of some intelligent agency.
I've already responded to that more than once in this thread. For that matter, even if that was true then so what?

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1047 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-04-2019 10:18 PM Sarah Bellum has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1069 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-05-2019 9:46 AM GDR has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1057 of 3207 (857034)
07-05-2019 2:52 AM
Reply to: Message 1044 by GDR
07-04-2019 7:10 PM


AZ GDR and ringo.
GDR, replying to AZPaul3 writes:
I don't accept that I wouldn't be able to accept the atheistic position. I am frankly, while acknowledging that I could be wrong, saying that to me the atheistic position makes no sense. I remember one of the outspoken atheists stating that he simply didn't like the idea of God. (Dawkins I think.)I suggest that maybe you are unable to overcome your emotional make up and hold your position because you can't accept the other possibility.
AZPaul3 writes:
The other argument to be made is that the wholesale lack of even the most minimal evidence in favor of a god proposal, after thousands of years and so many brains and so much activity in looking for any at all, has become its own set of data points against the proposal.
The bible clearly says that not everyone will accept the belief--in fact, a minority will accept the belief and a majority will reject it or be uninfluenced nor persuaded by it. I cannot speak for anyone else but myself, but I changed abruptly and continually over the years. Leprechauns and Big Foots simply dont have the same effect on people. There are few if any convinced followers of either...apart from an odd offshoot such as the flat earth society. Christianity alone has many millions of people who can vouch for a spiritual epiphany and awareness of God that simply was not there before.
GDR,commenting about ringo writes:
You claim that you have evidence that we got from there to here through mindless random processes without any intelligent involvement.
ringo has a valid argument that he desperately needed to grab. Perhaps he figures that if God is unnecessary his own personal beliefs are thus logical. I cant pretend to know how any of you think or how you process belief---but it seems that evidence is required before you will believe anything. Not a bad survival trait, but a stumbling block on the path to Christ.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1044 by GDR, posted 07-04-2019 7:10 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1061 by AZPaul3, posted 07-05-2019 4:04 AM Phat has replied
 Message 1075 by ringo, posted 07-05-2019 11:53 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Son Goku
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 1058 of 3207 (857037)
07-05-2019 3:02 AM
Reply to: Message 1054 by Sarah Bellum
07-05-2019 12:23 AM


Re: chances
I still don't see how this things are simple or basic. They all seem as complex if not more so than the level above them.
As I said protons, neutrons and electrons require infinite dimensional mathematical structures to describe and even computing their properties approximately is beyond the reach of networked supercomputers.
Beyond this we know the layer beneath them is even more complex. I still don't get the origin of this "simple basic stuff" phrase. The universe doesn't operate like Conway's Game of Life where you get complexity from quite simple basics.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1054 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-05-2019 12:23 AM Sarah Bellum has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2485 by Sarah Bellum, posted 08-05-2020 6:46 PM Son Goku has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1059 of 3207 (857038)
07-05-2019 3:02 AM
Reply to: Message 1046 by Sarah Bellum
07-04-2019 7:23 PM


Re: chances
Touche!

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1046 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-04-2019 7:23 PM Sarah Bellum has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1060 of 3207 (857039)
07-05-2019 3:07 AM
Reply to: Message 1055 by PaulK
07-05-2019 12:31 AM


Re: In Defense Of The Book
Even within the church, a minority are actually honorable. This is likely true in any group that you examine sociologically.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1055 by PaulK, posted 07-05-2019 12:31 AM PaulK has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1061 of 3207 (857040)
07-05-2019 4:04 AM
Reply to: Message 1057 by Phat
07-05-2019 2:52 AM


Re: AZ GDR and ringo.
Christianity alone has many millions of people who can vouch for a spiritual epiphany and awareness of God that simply was not there before.
Muslims, Hindus, Taoists etc etc would disagree. They, in their own many millions, think your spiritual epiphany and awareness of your god is both false and heretical.
Reality is not a popularity contest. It doesn't care how many of you are wrong.
I cant pretend to know how any of you think or how you process belief---but it seems that evidence is required before you will believe anything. Not a bad survival trait, but a stumbling block on the path to Christ.
Which means your path to christ is a path of ignorance.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1057 by Phat, posted 07-05-2019 2:52 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1062 by Phat, posted 07-05-2019 4:47 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1062 of 3207 (857041)
07-05-2019 4:47 AM
Reply to: Message 1061 by AZPaul3
07-05-2019 4:04 AM


Re: AZ GDR and ringo.
I had evidence. It was simply subjective. I alone experienced it. Experience can never be objective.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1061 by AZPaul3, posted 07-05-2019 4:04 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1063 by Pressie, posted 07-05-2019 5:59 AM Phat has replied
 Message 1269 by Stile, posted 07-16-2019 12:31 PM Phat has not replied

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


(1)
Message 1063 of 3207 (857042)
07-05-2019 5:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1062 by Phat
07-05-2019 4:47 AM


Re: AZ GDR and ringo.
Thugpreaca writes:
I had evidence. It was simply subjective. I alone experienced it. Experience can never be objective.
So, you mean you had unreliable "evidence". That's the same as having no evidence at all.
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1062 by Phat, posted 07-05-2019 4:47 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1064 by Phat, posted 07-05-2019 6:35 AM Pressie has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1064 of 3207 (857046)
07-05-2019 6:35 AM
Reply to: Message 1063 by Pressie
07-05-2019 5:59 AM


Re: AZ GDR and ringo.
Im not sure I understand. Is evidence only objective or "reliable" if everyone sees it? The Bible speaks of two distinct groups of people. The many and the few.
My argument is basically that the "evidence" is objective for the few and unreliable (and vacuous) for the many. Just because most people don't get it does not mkean that its unreliable---if anything it means that most people are too dense to get it.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1063 by Pressie, posted 07-05-2019 5:59 AM Pressie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1065 by Pressie, posted 07-05-2019 6:38 AM Phat has replied
 Message 1076 by ringo, posted 07-05-2019 11:56 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


(2)
Message 1065 of 3207 (857047)
07-05-2019 6:38 AM
Reply to: Message 1064 by Phat
07-05-2019 6:35 AM


Re: AZ GDR and ringo.
Thugpreacha writes:
Im not sure I understand. Is evidence only objective or "reliable" if everyone sees it?
Nope. It's only reliable if everyone can investigate it.
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1064 by Phat, posted 07-05-2019 6:35 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1066 by Phat, posted 07-05-2019 6:47 AM Pressie has replied

  
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